An anonymous reader (I’m always amazed at these people’s “boldness” for Christ), has provided a response (sort of) to the article I wrote several weeks ago. The good thing about it is he (or she) does use scripture. The bad thing about it is Anon II keeps making the verses say things they aren’t saying.
If any of you feel yourself being won over to the dark side, snap out of it. Remember, no one can take you out of the Father’s hand or Jesus’ hand.
Please also notice he keeps speaking as though the Eternal Security doctrine is saying: You can go sin as much as you want. It doesn’t matter. God will keep you anyway.” And he ignores the many-times stated position that a person who can go on carelessly and casually sinning isn’t saved to begin with. Take a look at the previous article of Eternal Security to address most of the verses he pulls in to “prove” we have to work for our salvation. As with most of the people who cheapen God’s grace, he builds a strawman (we can live any way we want and stay saved), and then uses scripture to contradict the false argument. This is not a response. It is simply a rant. And While I sometimes enjoy rants, they do on occasion become rather boring.
The net result of this poor schlep’s position is that one has to work for their salvation. Does anyone see anything wrong with that?
Here’s how it starts:
The FALSE Doctrine of “Eternal Security”:
“Once Saved Always Saved”
(a doctrine of First Baptist Church of Glenarden)
The bible warns us about false teachers, false prophets, “doctrines of devils”, and the “spirit of error”. Yet Christians (including ministers) are still prone to the deceptions of false doctrine. The practice of false doctrine, such as “once saved always saved”, has caused tremendous damage to Christians. It gives them a license to continue living in sin. Their soul is in jeopardy. So it’s imperative that “eternal security” doctrine be removed from our churches.
The “eternal security” doctrine is a part of soteriology (the doctrine of salvation). This doctrine has been a highly controversial subject for many decades. It’s known by several descriptive names: “Perseverance of the Saints”; “Once Saved Always Saved”; or “Preservation of the Saints”.
It pretty much goes down hill from there, trotting down exactly the same path as Anon I. His plethora of scriptures simply illustrates the need to very carefully examine scripture and avoid making it say what you want it to say, ignoring it when it says things that contradict what you want it to say.
Rather than punish you with the posting in its entirety, I have put a PDF of the rather tedious response here. Click on it, save it to your disk, and read at your leisure.
By the way, which ever of you is able to point out the most times Anon II reads something into his chosen verses will get a prize. If nothing else, I will mail you one of the books from my library. Or I might buy you a book through CBD or something. I’m serious!!! Top dog wins!
But of course, there is a catch - you have to tell me what the particular verse IS saying and support your statement with scripture and study.
Gird you loins, girls and boys. The reading is rough. But you gotta feel sorry for this poor fellow and the vicious religous universe he lives in. If he’s honest with himself, he has to go to bed every night terrified that he forgot to confess some sin or another to God and that he might die in his sleep, busting hell wide open.
Oh, and one thing I can say for him is that he is generally consistent. Not only does he say you can lose your salvation, he goes on to say that you can lose it with no hope of ever getting it back.
Pray for this guy and others like him. They must be totally miserable, even as I was when I believed as they do.
The real question is not “Can believers lose their salvation?” It is: “Am I a real Christian?” And if you have truly believed and been born again then this is a question to which one can provide an undeniable answer: (Phillipians 1:6 - Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ).
I believe that salavation is a gift for eternity. It is true that believers can temporarily “backslide” through disobediance, and can fall into sin; but he/she will always return to the Lord and can never finally fall away “apostatize” and be lost.
Example: Luke 15:11-32/Verse 32….for this thy brother was dead and is alive again and was lost, and is found.
There are many verses in the holy bible that support the perserverance of the saints. Amen!
To God be the glory, our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
Deb
ONCE SAVED, CAN A CHRISTIAN BE LOST?
The doctrine of Once saved, always saved” is not found in God’s Word. In fact just the opposite is found by those who carefully read. In Galatians 5:4 Paul wrote about Christians who were tying to find justification by keeping the Law of Moses, “Ye are severed from Christ, ye who would be justified by the law; ye are fallen away from grace.” II Pet. 2:20-22 speaks of Christians that had “escaped the defilement’s of the world through the knowledge of the Lord” and “are again entangled therein and overcome, the last state is become worse with them than the first.” Before they became Christians they were lost. They then learned how to be saved and escaped the defilements of the world through salvation. Then they became entangled again in sin and were overcome. Their last state or condition was worse then their first state. That was because in the beginning, although they were lost, they found Christ and eagerly accepted salvation. Now that they had known Christ and rejected him, there is nothing left for them to look to for salvation. In I Tim. 4:1 Paul warned that in the days to come, “some shall fall away from the faith…” These verses say it loud and clear. A Christian can fall back into sin, he can fall away from the faith of the gospel and his latter state will be worse than his original condition of being lost. John Waddey
Is it just me, or do all of these guys start off with the premise that OSAS says you can sin ’til you drop and you still get in?
Melvin
What am I missing? How could you be worse off than before you were saved (by your definition)? What’s worse than being lost? Damnation is damnation. I wouldn’t think there would be degrees in it. Isn’t that kind of like being a little dead as opposed to seriously dead?
Melvin
John - 10:27 My sheep hear my voice and ” KNOW THEM”and they follow me.
John - 10:28 - And I give unto them “ETERNAL LIFE” and they shall “NEVER PERISH” neither shall any “MAN” pluck them out of my hand.
John - 10:29 - My Father which gave them me is greater than all and no “MAN” is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.
In studying 2 Peter chapter 2: The reason that these false teacher’s “MAN” are able to allure these people into following them is because these people were never “born again/they never received Christ’s to begin with.
IMPORTANT: Jesus said no “MAN” can pluck his “sheep” out of His hand/His Father’s hand.
Being a christian and having the assurance of salvation does not mean that we can abandon ourselves to sin just because we know that we cannot lose our salvation under any circumstances. We are only too well aware of the awful price which was paid to secure our salvation and the love of Christ constrains us. Amen!
In the love of Jesus Christ,
Deb
Hello Melvin
Just came across your site and your obvious liking for that false doctrine called once saved always saved.
Could you explain to me why God’s Word contains warnings against falling from grace?
You seem to make some demand for scripture so how about a few of these to start the ball rolling so to speak.
Luke 21:34,36 ; 1Cor 10:12 ; Rom 11:22 ; 2Pet 2:20-22 ; Heb 3:14 ; Heb 4:1; Heb 12:15 — but to quote just a few.
Surely if just one scripture — if you are willing to accept 2Tim 3:16— reveals your doctrine flawed then OSAS is false.
I would think the real clincher would be 1John 5:16 would be the death blow to what i call the serpents sin doctrine.
If a brother(in the Lord) commits the sin unto death(eternal spiritual death) he is lost or fallen without remedy.
Just so you readers understand death:
Physical life is — the soul united with the body
Physical death is — the soul separted from the body
Spiritual life is — the soul united with God
Spiritual death is — the soul sperated from God
The second death — final and eternal speration from God.
This second death would seem the fate of this “sinning brother” in 1Peter 5:16
Look forward to your defense … if that where possible… Nay rather I say … repent from false doctrine and return unto the Lord and His Church, the Church of God
Bro Gil Reitsma
Hey Melvin
You said
What am I missing? How could you be worse off than before you were saved (by your definition)? What’s worse than being lost? Damnation is damnation. I wouldn’t think there would be degrees in it. Isn’t that kind of like being a little dead as opposed to seriously dead?
It appears you enjoy slamming others who come up with meaningless empty and dramatic comments!!!
But you can say as you please.
John Wadely is simply quoting the scripture which you simply want to dismiss by foolish comments.
Blind Freddy can understand that when one has tasted the goodness of the Lord and knows the truth of the gospel and its life and death eternal ramifications, that if one sins and is removed from the Church that they are in a worse state whilst living upon the earth in yet their mortal bodies.
Now they not only know the truth and the consequences which before they were blind to.
Melvin… dont try and win points by using worldly tactics of misinformation and blurring the facts.
John did not right the scripture but Paul under inspiration of the Holy Spirit which you would do well to remember.
Also you would do well to remember the statement GOD MADE to Moses “Whosoever(that means anybody including Melvin) hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book”
Bro Gil
Matthew 7:21-23 Not everyone who says to Me, Lord,Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to me on that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in your name perform many miracles? And then I will declare to them that, I never knew you; Depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.
1John 3:7-9 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he can not sin because he is born of God.
John 6:28-29 Therefore they said to Him, What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God? Jesus answered and said to them, This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.
Acts 2:38-39 Peter said to them, Repent and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Acts 26:20 But kept declaring both to those of Damascus first, and also at Jerusalem and then throughout all the region of Judea, and even to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, performing deeds appropiate to repentance.
We should seriously ask the question whether an individual truly accepted Christ. Matthew chapter 7 verses 21-23 states that all individuals that profess Christ will not enter the Kingdom of Heaven, because they have not done the will of the Father. John chapter 6:28-29 states that those who believe in Christ are the ones who will do the works of God. The apostles are very consistent with the message of the Gospel. I only presented two verses but they are consistent. Acts 2:38-29 is spoken by Peter and Acts 26:20 is spoken by Paul. They both state that in order to be born again repentence must occur. Matthew 7:21-23 states also that the ones who will not enter the Kingdom are also those who practice lawlessness (sin). A true Christian will not continue to sin. A change in his/her lifestyle should occur. Look at 1 John 3:7-9, the apostle John states the difference between those born of God and those not born of God. The ones who are born of God practice righteousness, while those not born of God continue to sin. Paul also states in Acts 26:20 that repentence should lead to a lifestyle appropiate to repentence. I strongly believe that once “truly” saved always saved.
For Gil -
Actually, I was addressing Wadley’s use of the verse in Hebrews he claims is talking about salvation. Specifically, the verse says: “”are again entangled therein and overcome, the last state is become worse with them than the first.” According to your buddy, this is talking about the saved. If this is talking about salvation, that would mean that the unsaved person (separated from God) becomes a Christian. Once that person falls away, he is again separated from God. How is the first condition (separated from God) any worse than the final (separated from God)? He’s separated from God in both. So again, what am I missing? Condemned is condemned. There is no better condemned versus worse condemned.
Unless of course, this isn’t talking about a saved person, but simply one who acknowledges the truth of the Gospel without actually accepting Christ as his or her savior.
Melvin
Proponents and teachers of this doctrine find weak excuses when challenged by contenders. One of their arguments goes like this: “We’re not saved by works”. I understand that, but that’s not the issue. That’s not a valid reason to teach a false doctrine like OSAS!
One of the numerous scriptures taken misinterpreted by OSAS proponents is Ephesians 2:8. “For by grace we are saved….not by works….”. PROBLEM: This text was not interpreted in its FULL context. Verse 10 completes Paul’s thought by saying, “For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good WORKS, which God prepared beforehand that we should WALK in them.”
What was Paul really saying in verses 8-10? It’s the grace of God that allows us to become saved (not our actions). But God created and expects us to DO “good works”. Again, our salvation is NOT based on (initiated through) our work. But our faith should produce “good works”. **This is God’s message that OSAS teachers tend to overlook.
The bible has a host of scriptures that contradict the “no works needed” excuse given by OSAS proponents. By the way, any message (interpretation) that’s not in harmony with other biblical passages is FALSE. If one’s interpretation contradicts other passages, the scripture obviously has a different message. God never contradicts himself. For more details, visit http://www.conroechurch.com/Articles/Interpret/Int_Harmonize.htm . (Deb, AJK, and OSAS people need this lesson.)
OSAS teachers cannot justify their “no works needed” excuse when the bible tells us: Believers should “do works fit for repentance”. (Acts 26:20) “Repentance from dead works and faith are the foundations for the doctrine of Christ.” (Hebrews 6:1) Christ redeemed us in order to “purify for himself a people that’s zealous in good works”. (Titus 2:14) Our “faith without works is dead”. (James 2:14-26). That means it’s useless or non-existent.
Throughout the New Testament, there are numerous scriptures that prove God expects obedience. When we obey God, we are doing a “good work”. That’s how we demonstrate our faith. (Titus 3:8) Though not the basis for salvation, we will be judged in accordance to our “works”. (Rev. 20:12, Rom. 2:5-6) We will be judged for the deeds done in our body. (2 Corinthians 5:10) Therefore, we must “cleanse ourselves from filthiness”. (2 Corinthians 7:1)
It’s wrong and unscriptural to tell Christians, “We don’t have to do any works to maintain our salvation”. Because the bible says:
“…without holiness no man will see the Lord.” (Hebrews 12:14b)
“For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.” (Romans 8:6, Galatians 6:8)
“For if you live according to the flesh you will DIE; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.” (Romans 8:13, Gal. 6:8)
“Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will NOT inherit the kingdom of God.” (Galatians 5:19-21, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Ephesians 5:5, Revelations 21:8)
These scriptures clearly show that “works” are important. Why? They can impact our spiritual condition. How? Sin causes spiritual death. Certain sins will prohibit Christians from entering God’s kingdom. The above passages refer to “born again” Christians. If OSAS were true, those warnings would not be necessary.
Additional scriptures show proof that “works” play a role in maintaining our salvation (deliverance). How? Our “works” can influence where we spend eternity. See the following scriptures:
Matthew 3:10, 7:21-23, 10:28, 24:13; Mark 18:3, John 5:29, John 8:51, Romans 2:5-8, Romans 2:13, Hebrews 5:9, 10:26-27; James 1:21-22, Jude 1:7, Revelations 2:10, 3:5, 22:14, etc.
The above scriptures are only a fraction of many passages that contradict the “no works” excuse and false teaching of OSAS. Obviously, the OSAS teaching does not line up with God’s word. Any doctrine that contradicts scripture is not from God. It’s a lie from the devil.
We are saved by grace through faith. Yet God’s grace involves a transformation of our lives. His “grace that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age.” (Titus 2:11-12) In the text GOD is saying: My grace for your salvation requires you to repent from ungodliness AND live a righteous life. Those works are not optional.
The teachings of OSAS have misled believers concerning the grace of God. His grace does not abound to cover your future sins. There’s no more sacrifice to cover the sins of a believer. (Hebrews 10:26) The blood of Jesus only covered our “past” sins. (2 Peter 1:9 KJV) When we commit a sin, we must repent and pray for forgiveness. If not, we could face judgment. (Hebrews 10:27)
ATTENTION OSAS TEACHERS:
If you’re a man/woman of God, how can you teach a doctrine that’s contradicted by scripture?
If you have a heart for God and doing His will, why haven’t you shown humbleness? Why haven’t you gone to God and asked Him to open your understanding of scriptures (instead of having a stubborn, know-it-all spirit)?
If God’s not giving you understanding, there are probably things in your life you need to repent from. OR You’re not called to preach or teach.
The blood of lost souls will be on your hands!!
And that is that folks. One of my three readers went to one of the sites referenced by the WFS folks. And she reports that it presented a really good argument in favor of a person being able to lose their salvation. However, the one thing I did notice is that site, after you brush away all the extra verbiage, is saying exactly the same thing as the rest of the WSFers - If you go out and live any kind of way, you will fall away and you won’t be able to get back.
This, again, does not address the OSAS position.
The result of the Etermal Security doctrine looks something like this:
I work because I am saved - not in order to stay saved and keep my “Get Out of Hell” card up to date.
I live a holy life because I am a new creation - not to keep from going to hell.
I avoid sin because I love God - not because I want to stay out of hell.
I confess my sins so He can cleanse me of their dulling effect - not so I can stay out of hell.
I will die for Jesus Christ because I love him - not so I can stay out of Hell.
I live as I live because it is a manner worthy of who I am - not because living a certain way keeps me out of hell.
I witness out of obedience and so others can come to the knowledge of Jesus Christ - not so I can stay out of hell for being disobedient.
Nothing I do will get me into heaven. Nothing I do can keep me out. However, if I can easily do all the bad stuff, then it’s a pretty safe bet I was never saved to begin with. Thus I don’t lose my salvation. I never had it in the first place.
Again, every argument the WSF folks have presented at one point or another, to one degree or another, becomes a matter of working for my salvation. If I have to do (or not do) something to stay saved, then I am working for my salvation. And from this perspective, cows are saved since they never sin.
A person who is actually, really saved does what they do because they have a love for God. If the love is not there, then probably neither is the salvation. If the love is there, the works will be there. But the works will be there because of whose I am, not in order to stay out of hell.
This comment section is now closed. And after Mr. Windbag’s exposition, I think it’s the least I can do for you readers.
Melvin