Note: The following is a posting contributed by Deb in Atlanta. She has made several comments and all of them have been most helpful. This last contribution is dead on to what I want this site to do. She brings out specific statements the Word Faith pimp has made , giving specific dates and locations. Pay attention! Some of this stuff is absolutely incredible!!
Creflo Dollar is an extremely dangerous man. His doctrine is heresy, the doctrine of devils, and it leads to damnation of the soul for the unwary anf unsaved. It is true that he robs the people of their earthly possessions, but more serious than that is the fact that souls are being destroyed.
Gal 1:8 But though we or an angel from heaven preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you let him be accursed.
Gal1:9 As we said before so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received let him be accursed.
Creflo Dollar preaches another Jesus, another Spirit, and another gospel. (2 Corinthians 11:4/Galatians 1:6)
Below are examples of his heretical doctrine:
Jesus Did Not Come As God And Was Not Perfect!
If Jesus came as God, then why did God have to anoint him? If Jesus - See God’s already anointed. If Jesus came as God, then why did God have to anoint him? Jesus came as a man, that’s why it was legal to anoint Him. God doesn’t need anointed. He is anointing. Jesus came as a man and at age thirty, God is now getting ready to demonstrate to us and give us an example of what a man with the anointing can do.
….Jesus didn’t come as God, He came as a man, and He did not come perfect.
….But Jesus didn’t show up perfect. He grew into His perfection. You know Jesus - one scripture in the bible - he went on a journey, he was tired. You better hope God don’t get tired. Isaiah 50 says, 50, 60, somewheres says where we have a God who fainteth not, neither is wearied? But Jesus did. If He came as God and he got tired; He says he sat down by the well because he was tired. Boy we’re in trouble.
….And somebody said, well, Jesus came as God! Well, how many of you know the Bible says God never sleeps nor slumbers? And yet in the book of Mark we see Jesus asleep in the back of the boat. (pause) Please listen to me. Please listen to me. This ain’t no heresy. I’m not some false prophet. I’m just reading this thing out to you of the Bible. I’m just telling you, you all these fantasy preacher have been preaching all of this stuff for all of these years and we bought the package! (Creflo Dollar Ministries: World Changers, 12/8/2002)
- Directly contradicts John 1:14, which reads “The Word became flesh and made His dwelling among us.” Creflo Dollar has the flesh becoming the Word!
- Dollar reduces Christ to an ordinary man who has been anointed, and as Copeland says, even HE (Copeland and Dollar) could have died for our sins.
- Contradicts 2 Cor. 5:21 “God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.”
- This is a blasphemous statement and blatant heresy on his part.
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Critics Have the Spirit of Poverty
You operate by a spirit of poverty if you are critical of those who preach and teach prosperity. You operate in a spirit of poverty if you are, if you criticize those who preach and teach prosperity. My God, man, I told you last night that Bible talks more about money than it does about heaven, and all we got to do is open the Bible up for ourselves and see it instead of sitting there being afraid to hear it. (Praise The Lord, July 20, 1999)
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You Can’t Have Love, Joy and Peace Without Money
See, there are some people that believe not in prosperity. There are some people that don’t want to hear it, they don’t want to have anything to do with it. You say money in church, they put their little finger up and they go to walking out the church. As broke as they are, they go walking out church with their little finger up, ’cause Satan’s got their minds blind. They’ve been blinded in their minds. They don’t want to hear about prosperity. They don’t want to hear about, that God is a God that wants to put money in your hand, that God is a God that has prosperity on His mind. They don’t want to hear that.
“Bless God, I want to hear about love and joy and peace.”
Well, you need to hear about money, because you ain’t gonna have no love and joy and peace until you get some money! (Praise The Lord, July 20, 1999)
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You Aren’t Whole Without Money
Now, last night we began to deal with the relationship between peace and prosperity, and we found out that the Hebrew word for “peace” is the word “shalom,” and that word means “wholeness, completeness, nothing missing and nothing broken.” And we read, and we’ll look at it again tonight, it says “my soul is far from prosperity.” Why? “Because my soul’s far from peace because I forgot prosperity.” We established last night that you are not whole until you get your money. Amen. Amen. (Praise The Lord, July 20, 1999)
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God Ready to Put Money In Your Pocket
Look at this. Revelation 3:17. Notice Jesus is talking here. He said, “Because thou saith ‘I am rich, and increased with goods’”- See, we think in this society you can be rich and increased in good and not be poor. But now notice what He says: “Because thou saith ‘I am rich, and increased with goods and have need of nothing’” - He said “That’s what you said.” - “And you knowest not that thou art wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked.”
Now wait a minute. This boy got money. He said “Yeah, but he’s still broke in other areas of his life.”
Now here’s what Jesus is trying to do over here in Luke. Go back to Luke, Chapter 4:18. Here’s what Jesus wants to show us. This anointing is available to deliver whoever is without. Wherever you need to be made whole, the Gospel is the Good News about the power of God on Jesus to make you whole and get you out of your poverty, whether it’s poverty in health or poverty in a blind money or poverty in money. This anointing is ready to deal with poverty. This anointing is ready to remove the burden and destroy the yoke. So, honey, you can be healthy tonight and you can be, you have your eyesight and you’re able to walk, but you ain’t got no money in your pocketbook, I’m telling you this anointing is ready to put some money in your pocketbook because He’s ready to remove the burden of lack. (Praise The Lord, July 20, 1999)
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Faith Stuff Produces Material Stuff!
The substance of the house you want is faith substance. …before the wood, before the tree, before the seed, there was the substance. And when you get the substance, then you can get the seed, which will bring the tree, which will produce the wood, which will build your house. But without faith stuff, you have no stuff, because faith stuff is the stuff of all stuff. Take away the faith stuff, you ain’t got no stuff. Get the faith stuff, and you can get some more stuff, because you got the main stuff. Now, did you get all that stuff? (Changing Your World Show, Sept. 20, 1998)
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Words Are Spiritual Containers
Now, God used faith substance to make everything that He made…in every one of those words they were filled with faith substance, because words are nothing but containers…. every time God speaks, He can’t help but to speak words that are filled with faith…God’s guts are called faith stuff…. Everything in Him is faith. … What’s in His heart is faith….if you were to cut God open, you’d see nothing but faith. Every time He opens His mouth now, He automatically fills those words with His faith material. (Changing Your World Show, Sept. 20, 1998)
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Jesus Wore Designer Clothes
I’m telling you, Jesus wasn’t poor, and He didn’t wear no rags, either. Like we march in on these Easter little plays that we do at our church, with those raggedy sheets on. Jesus didn’t have no rags on. He wore designer clothes, honey! (Creflo Dollar Crusade, Feb. 9, 1999)
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Speak to the Spirit of Debt - Fig Tree Spoke to Jesus
Start speaking your freedom. There is no such thing as deliverance in this physical, natural realm aside from your mouth. Your mouth is connected to your life. Death and life is in the power of the tongue. You’re going to have to start speaking to the spirit of debt. If you don’t speak to the debt, debt gonna talk to you. Jesus spoke to a thing. He spoke to a fig tree. The Bible says “He answered it and said,” so obviously the fig tree must have been saying something to Him. It had leaves on it, but it didn’t have no figs on it. And Jesus showed up hungry and the fig tree said, “I bet you think I’ve got some figs on me, but I ain’t got no figs on me and I know you’re hungry because I see you shaking, but I ain’t got no figs on me. You still going to be hungry.” Jesus answered it and said, “Well then, no man will eat fruit of thee hereafter.” See, things will talk to you. (Creflo Dollar Crusade, TBN, Feb. 9, 1999)
For the people in these kinds of ministries I pray Eph 5:14 - Awake thou that sleepest and arise from the dead and Christ shall give thee light.
I am so pleased that the Lord is speaking to many others. Now more than ever black people need to think for themselves and stop making rich these pimps. Creflo is as only smart as we allow him to be. I thank God for many others that are becoming bold enough to speak God’s blessed truth. PJ
Faith produces material stuff, Creflo?
Odd, in high school science class they taught that matter can be neither created nor destroyed, it only changes form. So what Creflo is trying to say here is that faith itself is matter? That faith can be transformed from some initial form into a house or car?
So he says faith (or belief) can be transformed into consumer products. That’s more original than wishing on a star, I guess.
Check out this discussion and you will see what happens when you speak against this nonsense.
http://www.swacpage.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=54149
I hope it is not inappropiate to post links to other sites on this board, if so I apologize.
Melvin’s Note: It’s not a problem. I assume the readers are able to filter for themselves, for the most part. While I wouldn’t let stand a link to a porno site or something like that, anything else is quite alright.
Interesting information on this pastor. It’s nice to always know who you are involving in your life, however, isn’t true that all ministers and pastors worldwide ask for money? Regardless of where they are putting the funds? I give to the less fortunate on my own time and God blesses me.
If you think you’re being bamboozled out of your money than don’t give it like to the church…..find a charity or volunteer your time and/or money someplace where it’s needed. Then you can see exactly where it’s going.
No one on this earth is perfect. Everyone falls so short of Jesus so I expect our brothers and sisters to act a certain way. I’m not surprised by any of this website. (Melvin’s Note: It’s not about wether or not a person is perfect. It’s about preaching another gospel.)
Let God take care of these pastors. Don’t bad-mouth them. All you’re doing is fueling their cause. I bet you that if someone hadn’t heard of these pastors they will now search the radio and tv for them? Watch…… you’re sucking more in…..be careful.
I find it very unfortunate that you are giving all of your thoughts and feelings on things that the Word of God proves otherwise. Because you do not like the “feel” of preachers talking about shalom (nothing missing, broken, or lacking), you call it heretical. Shalom means just that….so it includes finances. Not just what you “want” it to include. Furthermore, Jesus coming to earth as man. I have two scriptures for you. God cannot be tempted with evil (James 1)….yet the Word says that Jesus was tempted (Luke 4:2 is one of several examples). Does that mean that Jesus was not divine, not at all. He just came to earth to redeem us and had to come as one of us….that’s how he is a perfect example for us… And as for the material things coming from faith…..God is spirit (John____) and Colossians 1:16 says that ALL things were created by him (the unseen). The word tells us to have faith in God (Matt 11:22) which is translated from “have the faith of God.” Heb. 11:3 says we understand through faith the worlds (material thing) was made and Heb. 11:1 says faith is the substance.
ULTIMATELY, please understand in love that the message of prosperity is not about money. We are Jesus in the earth, the salt of the earth. The gospel cannot be spread without money. That is the ultimate purpose of money, not material things. Cars and homes are by-products when you understand that all things are possible…you can produce those things but that’s not all. You can be a faithful steward so that you can become a distribution center. The earth is the Lord’s and the fulness thereof….who better to trust than his people to put money and things into the hands of. Why because people need homes, food, the gospel needs to be spread. And if a Bentley is in that….do you think God is upset. He is not limited to ONLY feeding the poor w/money, he could grant simple things that delight his children because THEY delight in His word and effecting the earth with his message. Prosperity is one of them. To the sick, the good news is healing, to the poor it’s money. Don’t try to take one and leave the other.
All in love. Embrace the whole truth of the gospel. Not just what feels good. If it’s in the Word, embrace it. Period. Feelings don’t matter. Period. (Melvn’s Note: I’m sorry. I’m having some trouble seeing where feelings were disucssed in the posting. I do see where you threw a couple of verses out and then began to express your feelings. By the way, the definition Cashflow and company give for shalom is way, way, down on the list of definitions. Context has to be used to determine which definition to use. Cashflow doesn’t do that. His message is about money, not God, about physical prosperity, not holiness. )
What the heck is heresy anyway what does it mean exactly? Really I dunno. So I looked it up in the dictionary and it said (New Choice edition): religious belief regarded as contrary to the orthodox doctrine of a church; and belief or opinion contrary to established or accepted theory.’
I ask you was the Lord a heretic seeing as he likening himself to God forgiving sins- healing on the sabbath, not stoning the whore caught in the very act, eating and mixing with the dregs of that society? etc. (going against, in effect, of things that were given by God Himself through Moses?)
Then there is the question of those who practised and established the doctrine of the curse of Ham and their justification for over 400 years of captivity - bondage cruelity of black people - backed up by the new testament teachings of Paul and his admonishement for all slaves to stay in their own place etc. (1tim 6:1-5, Ephesians 6v 5-6, titus 2:9-10, 1 Peter 2:18).
Were the Abolitionists heretics in going against the teachings of the established churches of the day?
Getting to ‘Pastor Dollar’ - why is he considered as a heretic when you all can see where he is coming from if you read the Word. There any many things that God expects us to mature up to and in order for us to get there He has given us permission thru the forgiveness of sins.
Can you honestly say that you have never pondered on the MAN-GOD thing? If you havent then you will. It is part of maturity - part of meat and not milk.
Jesus was flesh - God was flesh, the seed of Abraham - so that He shows us that it can be done the fulfilment of the Law.
How will you tackle rightly the other things that will come up on the road to maturity - some of which has been talked on on this very website. Including the issue of women preacherover men and Paul.
Incidently Deb I wanted to reply the other comment which I then could not find so here goes, Paul backed his point by trying to’ pull rank’ when there was none they were all Spirit filled and not with scripture concerning him not suffereing women to teach over men. You know the equivilent of people saying something like the Holy Spirit told them in order to try and validate a point. Even today Paul we are all Spirit filled thank you very much. (MN: Wow. )
Saying that women cannot is to deny the Holy Spirit who has given unto all to profit withal?!!
Paul was by no means perfect - I daresay you will all accuse me of being a heretic, whatever.
Dare I say it ? He had so much of a problem with women that he displayed classic gay ( and I ain’t talking about niceness) hatred of women blaming women for all things seeing them as irrelevant and frivilous(silly - ladened with lusts etc) chosing to ignore the parts that women Ruth, Esther even Rahab played even Isarael’s history- cue Let all of Gays that God has called come on out!
Blame the Word or my profession I see what I see in the Word.
The word describes his character and Paul himself : His appearance according to what the bible tells us - wasn’t much, kinda like a dweeb, ‘his bodily presence weak’ - a description he himself gave of himself. He was a power hungry modern day equivilent - masonic- type person - pharisee at heart.
He was not even part of the original 12.
Ain’t finished yet,
He had a problem with Gentiles and gentile prosperity - which was understandible as up untill that point the Jews had been the only ones that were the apple of God’s eyes -he talking about - so you have faith -BIG DEAL (darling how rude) - even demons know that there is one God and they tremble..and saying that you know that you were gentiles carried away unto dumb idols etc.
Kinda like when Saints say to messianic jews oh so you finally accepted your Lord then….. finally! too rude!
Maybe its a brit thing y’all
Do you see who Paul was ?
Still he was who he was! And the Lords grace abounded to wards him Hallelujah even to the making it in and unto the finish line.
I say therefore let all the power hungry masonic type gay type person come unto the Lord. amen.
Jesus Christ died for the ungodly. amen.
E.
(Melvin’s Note: I only made one comment. I wanted to give the rest of you, who agree or disagree with her, an opportunity to respond. By the way, I should have a sound clip and transcript of the 12/8 Cashflow sermon. His statements and distortions are priceless Crefloisms. My head spun to listen to it. )
(Iris’s note:) Your head should have spun because you are obviously possessed!
So I guess that means the bible is a fallible, man-made document, written by men, who had a knowledge of God, but expressed a lot of opinion also. Therefore it takes “Spirit Filled” people like you, who have been given a “divine revalation” from someone like ‘Flo, to really decipher the “meat” of what scripture REALLY means.
Paul, who wrote 2/3 of the New Testament, was mostly wrong, therefore 2/3 of at least the N.T. is incorrect. Dare I ask what other of the Patriarchs who didn’t prescribe to modern-day Feminism were erring in their books?
Elizabeth, the only thing right about what you said was the definition of heretic. With your wild imaginations about Paul, how do you refute what is written in books like the DaVinci Code, where Jesus married Mary M. and had children? (or do you?) Your argument about Jesus also being a heretic and Paul causing slavery can only lead me to think that you are a very confusing mixture of Christianity, Eastern Religions (”the God-man thing”) and millitant Islam. Elizabeth, christianity is not a buffet line in which you can pick and choose the parts that you WANT to believe, and leave out the parts that make you uncomfortable.
In all honesty Rev, Elizabeth may in fact be a part of one of the Mega churches. (Melvin’s Note: I visited her website. She claims to be a follower of Dollar) It seems to be the norm now to mix the WORD of GOD with a bunch of opinions and other religions so that it is embraced by ALL(regardless of belief). These churches are starting to go out of their way to make peace with other religions in an attempt to show the “LOVE of GOD”.
Elisabeth’s comment is just another example of how these NEW AGE “christians” (I didnt have a better word) are starting to mix the sound doctrine with other “good phrases and passages and fables” so they can get their point across. If you notice half of them have NO knowledge of scripture or a desire for knowledge. They just quote phrases from the book of Dollar or LONG. It’s really scary when you think about it.
Elizabeth’s comment and many others is just an example of 2 Tim 4:1-4. Most of what she said is part of the “Fables” that Paul was talking about.
And Melvin PLEASE allow Salamon to post a little longer I am really getting a “KICK” out of his attempt to “Prophesy” against you. LOLOLOL its classic. (MN: Done.)
REV_AK.
The Word is Sure - Perfect, men/women aren;t. Jesus promised that His Church will be built upon Peter(cephas) and not Paul ought not the NT word be built up upon former rather than the latter?
I ‘m sorry about the whole Paul thing if you found it not to be edifying.! He did do a great thing and managed to preach to the whole of Asia before the http://www.!!!
But He who the Son has set free will remain free indeed.
As for the davinci code I don;t know why or where on earth it came from : it doesn’t really matter if Jesus married and had kids or not (which he didnt). The kids would not be more holy and everyone else( that is saved ) less Holy for we are joint heirs in Him.
Didn;t say that Paul caused slavery.
And there is nothing about Christianity that makes me uncomfortable. I am very much comfortable with it after many years of struggles.
I aint eastern nor millitant muslim although I have nothing against either. It is neither here nor there unto me. It is the Lord Jesus that judges under the Law as well as under Grace He created all things through Him for Him and by Him.
And I still don;t know why there is such an anti- Dollar sentiment on this lovetohatehim website. Seeing as in establishing the website you yourselves aimed to get a following.
Maybe when your own ‘loot’ comes in you won’t hate him so much huh?
Do you all even believe in the things that are written in the word that he teaches - tithing, giving etc. I mean if someone else preached it would you believe? Yet he ( & anyother tithing giving preacher preaches on things unto the end times - overcoming the beast etc.) If they are truely Gods systems (& they are ) then they are tools/weapons to overcoming in the end end times. The bible says during the time of the anti-christ in ezekiel( i think will have to look it up,) those who know their God and are strong in Him will do exploits. We have overcome by the Blood of the Lamb and the word of our testimonies. Amen
shalom
I like.
Why are you afraid of mega churches ? Is it because you can’ t grapple the fact that others will make it in and not just your ‘corner church’ even yet other religions (when they accept the Lord )
I thought we were all saints and knowledge-able of the word without me quoting it. I’m sorry. what is the use of the word if it is not to be applied? ( law vs grace!)
Thanks for visiting my website even for putting it as a link.
yes I am a worldchangers partner member.
Darling ( beloved - olde english for darling)
I’m finally on the honour-dishonour roll. Budge up (scoot down) pastor I’m ma comin’!.
Let me guess you a KJV only? (Melvin’s Note: Not really. I use the NASB. )
People think that the bible is ‘more sacred’ because it is written in Olde english which was modern at the time that it was written. funny (KJV) and now the modern day saints cannot cope with modern day versions of the Word (MN: Actually, it was written in Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic, not English olde or otherwise. )
Ensure your foundations Jesus didn’t come with the KJV!
MN. hebrew greek and aramaic texts..I know that and I also know that alot of meanings are lost in translations into english.
Even so, Jesus didn’t quote the book of Moses ( Oldtestament) like we do nowadays.by that I mean he referred to it but He didn’t say like : 1book of moses v 2 or whatever!!! Even when Satan approached Him. ( & Paul did not refer to the scriptures to justifiy himself) In terms of what he himself taught of heirachy & submission etc - he is not exactly a pastor over me now is he?
We are all spirit filled he himself said that : beloved I know you are all filled with the Spirit.. which means it came up - what made him above others even those who he pastored or apostled over.. how much us now.
This sounds like a bunch of vain babbling
Elizabeth,
I appreciate your tone, and the fact that you do not get into personal attacks. But you have been fully indoctrinated by the pimps, and I suspect a lack of fully reading the Bible for yourself (without a pimp-given false pretext). Your answer to the question is highly illogical. You said “the Word is sure…men/women aren’t.” By this logic, you mean that God intended for the Word to be perfect, but men like Paul (no women wrote scripture) messed some things up, and that some things were lost in translation.
That has allowed the Pimps to come in and “fix” your theology. The way you do this, is by giving the “new revalations” by the “Spirit.” Jesus didn’t say He would build the church on Peter, but on the fact that He is the Christ(and He never suffered in Hell!!). I also suspect you enjoy your role as an antagonist on this site, but you are really not one. You are using pimp lingo, like spirit this and that, but instead of an antagonist, you are proving Melvin’s point with each word you type.
I will not respond to you anymore, unless you say once and for all, whether you beleive that the bible we have in 2006, is infallible, or full of mistakes.
Elizabeth,
I am not afraid of the mega churches nor am I afraid that anyone will make it in besides my corner church. My actual fear is that there are people who feel they are garuanteed a spot in heaven because of their membership in a church and not because of their belief in Jesus and the following of HIS WORD.
Matt. 7:13 - 14 states that wide is the gate and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction. Many people are walking through the gate and down the way that the pimps are setting up. Allowing you to believe that you are close to GOD because you have natural substance, and money. They minister as the false prophets mentioned in v.15 speaking to your inner desires and lusts for money, fame, and success. Portraying themselves as sheep, when they are really ravenous wolves only concerned with taking more from you.
The sad part about it is that people defend this doctrine with the hope that GOD will see thier faithfulness to protect “his anointed” and give them more money and more fame.
You want more success? Try taking that 500.00 that you sewed into WCCI to become a partner and invest it in a savings account, mutual fund or some sort of interest bearing account. At least you will get more than just a certificate, monthly message and newsletter and a partnership pin.
With all of the money that you sew into the mega ministry each month.
What is it doing for you? Has any of these pastors sewed any money into YOUR ministry, helped you finance an outreach program at your church or even stopped by to visit?
I mean its ok to say loud and proud that you are a partner with WCCI, but I ask you this:
Is WCCI a partner with you? If so, What has the pastor done for you lately. And please dont respond with “he gave me a word” or “I have a special annointing that flows on me from the man of GOD.” Give us something concrete.
God bless.
Its just something to make you go hmmmm…
REV_AK: Everytime in history a new version/edition of the bible comes out it always brings about a debate and calls of heretical teachings and teachers etc. As was siad the Lord Himself was accused of being a heretic: who can forgive sin? He likened Himself to God!!! He broke the Law of Moses by not washing His hands of mixing with unsavouries etc.
KingJames was not the first edition of the bible contrary to popular belief.
With each version God is still in control.
The Word of God stands sure and has been established from Everlasting to Everlasting.
In the begining was the Word and the Word was with God.
As Spirit filled in understanding and walking in the Word
I examine even what the early apostles preached with the Words of the Lord even as Jesus gave referrences to the books of Moses.
We are to be like Him - till Jesus is formed in us.
Even Paul himself walked in this way of basing what he taught on the Lord Jesus ’s teachings except of course on the issue of women prachers over men.
For me regarding - women preachers over men , Jesus is the Way the Truth and the Light.
Again the Lord didn’t say that women ought not to preach over men.(or did he directly? Not that I have already attained - If anyone knows please expound )
So why then did Paul chose not to base it upon the Lord ’s teachings? but instead to base it under the Law ( Pharasaical at that!) if he had not gone back under the Law and forgotten to be Gracious? No he went back under the Law even to the point of ignoring the Holy Spirit and causing women in his ‘opinion’ to be at a set back for how many centuries?
For he said it was his ‘opinion’ Paul said that ‘he would not suffer it’ like when he said permission and ‘not a commandement of the Lord’ (1 cor 7v6) in trying to defend him.
But then basing it on Eve and Sarah (negative points of them which the Lord Himself forgave mind ) and not on the positives ( Rahab, Esther and Ruth positives) and the Spirit of Liberty that gave all gifts unto all male and female.
John 16 v13. The Spirit of Truth will reveal all Truth ( John 16v13)
The Book of Acts is the begining of the age of Liberty through the Holy Spirit unto all women as Jesus has come to give us Life and Life in Abundance.( John 10 v 10).
As a Spirit filled Christian woman I know my place in the Lord thanks very much & not Paul whom I will meet in Heaven can sepearte me from the Love of God and Liberty that He gave unto me.
As he himsef said and; would say ‘1cor v13: was it that Paul was crucified (he was actaually beheaded) or the baptism that we are baptised with unto whose name. In other words it was Jesus that died and gave up His life for me and not Paul.
The Word is sure(established and truth) Jesus is sure( established and truth) the bible is sure (established and truth). Let us lay aside the things of baby hood, foundations of repentence from dead works, resurrection of the dead etc and go unto Maturity.
(Melvin’s Note: Elizabeth, as Rev said earlier, I do appreciate your attitude. But the trouble is your comments are so often filled with contradictions. I am continuing to post your comments, not because you are adding anything useful to the discourse, but because you are illustrating many of the fallacies put forth by some of the pimps and exhibiting some of the weaknesses that often make us vulnerable to the pimps. The following are some examples:
1. You state that the Jesus never said women ought not to teach and Paul did. In fact you go on to say that Paul ignored the Holy Spirit and said some thing that go back to the Old Testament. In taking this approach, you diminish the authority of Scripture, in effect saying, “…all scripture is inspired (God breathed), good for instruction and training in righteousness, except for those part where Paul ignored the Holy Spirit.” This may not be what you MEAN, but it is the net result of the words you use.
2. You seem to be making the classic division of focusing on the Gospels and minimizing the epistles. Often you contrast Jesus and Paul, stating that Paul doesn’t save you (which is true). It’s not a matter of Paul saving you. Rather it is a matter of the Bible, the whole Bible being taken as authoritative in the believer’s life.
3. You state on several occasions, that Jesus did not refer to the Old Testament. But this is not true. An implied reference is on the road to Emmaus. It states there that Jesus, starting with Moses, taught the disciples about Himself. He used the Old Testament. In seveal other places, for instance in the reference to David and the shewbread (addressing the fact that his disciples did not wash their hands) he appealed directly to Scripture. When announcing Himself as the messiah, he referred directly to the Old Testament. In fact, he read from it and then taught on it.
While I don’t want to banish you from the site (as Salomon has been as he continues to make brain-dead comments), you seem to be both sincere and inquisitive about what the Bible actually says, I will have to execise some measure of editorial discretion in which of your comments make it through. Repetitive one will not be relayed. As long as we are moving the discussion along, those will be. I do feel somewhat badly about this restriction, but I think it will do both you and the site a lot of good. )
Getting back to the rest of the question(s) asked of me.
I LIKE: I don;t actuall y know of any one that thinks that their heven boundess is based upon a pastor or a church.
It is the Lord Jesus that died and gave up His Life for us not a pastor or a local church.
As a wcci partner member I can honestly say that Pastor Dollar each day that I watch his broadcast - he does not stand there everyday preaching about loot - filthy lucre. niether does he ask for donations to his ministry.
I was not aware of a 500.00 “membership fee” ( £ or $ ) to wcci or icm not that it matters. If a person wants to go join someone else and pay the fee then they agree to that fee from the outset. ( be like the parable of the Lord that had labourers and agreed from the outset to pay them the same wage.)
No one has anything unless the Lord gives it unto Him.
You sound like an insider in disguise if you paid the 500 and felt that it was not vlue for Love then let the ministry know. it will not do you or him much good bitching about it behind his back on line not really. How will he know?( if a brother is at fault with yo go and tell him if he listens you have won him if not tell it to the church - go make it known to the committee of the church.)
You sound hurt somehow. Sorry.
I pray that the root of bitterness does not take place.
I ‘M LOVING IT STILL and have addicted myself to his ministry
( 1cor 16v15).
As for proof, well you all remember the bomb blasts of 7/7/05 that hit London. The ministry stepped up to the plate and sent us mobile text exhortations as to our welfare after both bombs - actual and foiled bombings. If that is not proof of Love I don;t know what is as well as prayers and exhortations..
I hear all the cynics and critics: well he only out for the loot protecting his money. What ever.
If his heart is set on us cos of his loot good enough for me then we are half way there. ( using filthy mammon)
really I will urge you to take it up with his ministry if you feel that it was not value for love/or money , least test his crookedness.
E
Last last last point on the issue of women preachers over men -really last point - guys permit me.
We all know that the last Adam - Jesus came to deliver us from the curse as cursed is everyman that hangs on a tree!
Under the curse Eve and womanhood was sentenced to be subject - inferior to her man. Genesis 3v16:Unto the woman He said, I will greatly mutliply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow that will give birth and thy desire shall be to thy husband and he shall rule over thee’
Surely under Grace - thanks to the Lord who has delivered us from the curse which Eve & Adam placed us under - we are equal to our men and not inferior to them, even unto the teaching over men. Hallelujah.
Let all the women that are free indeed remain free.
Melvin’s Note - And apology for the length of the comment:
Elizabeth, I thank you for your response. I think I understand where you are coming from with the Adam-First-Man-Curse thing. However, consider this.
The first man’s disobedience, condemned us to a cursed world, death, sickness, and all the things we don’t like. As a part of that, is the woman’s pain in childbirth.
Jesus’ death did not remove the curse. The ground is still filled with thistles and thorns, men still make a living by the sweat of their brow and, in general, women still suffer in childbirth. Or, as the mother of two children are you now telling me you didn’t suffer at all?
According to the Bible (and here, I believe, is where you are mixing things up) 1 Cor 15:45 speaks of the second Adam (Jesus) being a life giving spirit. The curse was not removed. In fact, Romans 8:18 - 25 talks about the fact that creation is still under the curse which came through Adam. We are a part of cursed creation.
When Jesus died for our sins, he made it possible for sinful men to become new creations in Christ. But that did not change our corrupt flesh. It did not take away the physical that happened when Adam and Eve disobeyed God.
Eve was not cursed to be inferior to Adam. No place does the Bible say a man is superior to a woman. We are different, designed for different functions and different purposes. Men are not designed to have babies, women are. Women are not designed to be disciplinarians, men are. None of this changed with the death of Christ. Additionally, according to the Bible, pastors are to be the husband of one wife, not the wife of one man. It isn’t a matter of inferiority, it’s a matter of what God has ordained. Men and women are different. Grace vs Law has nothing to do with roles and functions. Being a pastor is not a sign of superiority. I’d even say it’s a sign of inferiority since obviously a person has to be a little on the crazy side to willingly take up the responsibility for the spiritual well being of most of the Christians I know!
At this point, you have to decide if the epistles apply or not. If you decide they do not apply, then we have no basis for further discussion since we will be arguing from two different sets of standards. Either the whole Bible is inspired or it is not. Either you obey it as applicable, or you ignore it.
So far, everytime a reference is made to Paul, pushing something you don’t like, you dismiss the clear teaching of the text. That is not the approach a Christian should take to the Bible.
Your last statement was a classic case of picking and choosing what you want to believe. I say this because you are willing to quote Paul when he says there is neither male nor female, but you are not will to listen when he says “…not suffer a woman to exercise authority over a man.” It’s the same man.
Elizabeth,
Well, My mother is a so called Apostle/Pastor and I’ve been back and forth with her on this issue. However, this is the thing. Feminism has a Throat Hold on the Church and has pushed it’s views in on a Holy God who has designed/Created this Earth. Now going back to Creation, we see that God made all things and gave all things purpose. Men and Women were given Dominion over the Earth and were told to subdue everything. However we see a very important Order set throughout Scripture. God made man the Head and the Women his help mate. Now if this Order never changes, it shows that God’s Word never changes and is True from Front to Back showing God’s Infallible Words stands.
You don’t see any of the Animals starting an uproar, saying that they don’t want to be ruled by humans anymore. No, God has given them order and they stick to that Order.
The issue that I’ll have explaining this Truth of God’s Order to you is that we must all agree that God Word from Genesis to Revelation is 100% God Breathed. A Woman’s place was never to exhort authority over a Man. Does the Son exhort Authority over the Father, or does the Holy Spirit try and exhort Authority over the Son? No, each one of them knows their role and accepts their role and the Trinity works in perfect Harmony and God is Self Sufficient within himself…
Now if we are going to conform to the Image of Christ we must accept the roles that God has given us.
What are the qualification to be a Deacon, Elder, or Teachers? Did Jesus every say that Women were to be Pastors, Elders, or Teacher’s? If God didn’t create Order, then a Monkey could come slap a person in the Face and take Authority over that Person without that being wrong, it would be Planet of the Apes as we know it…
So my question to you Elizabeth, is have you accepted the role the Sovereign God has given you on this Earth, or does God’s role for you not fit your perception of who you are? Do you know yourself better then the one who created you? Or does God know what’s best for those he Loves?
Women of Old accepted their roles and embraced the Life that God ordained them to have and were fulfilled when they found out that God knows every WOMAN’S WORTH. He knows what works best for Women and God is the only one who can meet the all the Demands that woman require (I’m Engaged to be Married in 3 Weeks and just got done with Marriage Counseling, Only God can meet all those Demands…lol…). So the God who created you from a Rib as complexed and unimaginable as that is, knows what’s best for you. The Role Yahweh the God of the Bible has given Women is what a Woman has always wanted whether she knows it or not.
You don’t see Microwaves telling their Creators they weren’t made to warm up food. The same thing goes with the Role of a Woman. God has an ordained Order, therefore let us embrace God Statues and Decrees because they are good.
Grace and Peace
seal
This all is really sad. I used to watch WCCI broadcast, and nothing against Pastor Dollar. I am mature enough to know that life does not consist in the abundance of things. This is what Jesus teaches, and this keeps me balanced. If Bro. Dollar continues, then let him. The Apostle Paul said that some preach the gospel with ulterior motives, but nevertheless Christ is preached, and therein Paul rejoiced.
I have this saying, in the last day, it will all come out in the wash!
Peace
The only problem is that what he teaches ISN’T the gospel. He preaches another Jesus, another Christian experience, a God who exists to serve us, and a view that we are Gods. If he were preaching the gospel there would be no real problem. But, again, he is not preaching the gospel.
By the way, if you knew someone who was putting arsenic-laced aspirin on the shelves in store, would you take the attitude that it would all come out in the wash? Spiritually, this is the same thing. People who follow him, and following a different Jesus are, likely as not, not even born again. They are decieved and will get a shocker when the wash is done. Do you really want to sit around and watch as this goes on?
I read on the internet that Creflo Dollar’s birth name was Michael Smith (do your own research on this). I wondered if Creflo was an anagram. I meditated on it, and came up with L Force Dollar. What does the L stand for? I can surmise many things.
I have been to his church and listened to many of his sermons. I almost joined, but had doubts. I am doubtful because there are no religious symbols in the mega churches for one. There are scriptures taken out of context, and positions taken about Jesus Christ not being God in the flesh on earth. SInce he is a part of the Trinity, he was God walking on earth as far as I’m concerned.