Ladies and Gentlemen,
Don’t worry, I’m not going to fuss about Charles Stanley. But since I have you here I would like to see if you can help me.
On October 27, 2005, in Prince Georges County Maryland, John K. Jenkins is going to be hosting a Pastors Symposium featuring Charles Stanley from Atlanta. I have always had a great deal of respect for Dr. Stanley. In fact, that is why I need your help. Dr. Stanley might be completely unaware of John’s shenanigans. At least I hope that is the case.
I am composing a letter to Dr. Stanley. The text of the letter is here.
Here’s where your help comes in. I can write a letter to warn the good doctor about John. And in all probability, it will get lost in the five thousand letters a day of noise that his “In Touch” post office box receives. The harried pre-readers aren’t going to take much notice of one religious crazy whining about an obscure pastor in Maryland. But if the rest of you (all seven of you) would write a letter warning Dr. Stanley about John, we may be able to keep him from making the huge mistake of tying his name to a man who denies some of the essentials of historic Christianity.
One of the processes John has been using to build up his church (his church, not Christ’s) and himself is to tie Big Dog names to his own. That apparently was the reason he became involved in the Full Gospel Baptist Fellowship. Doing so gave him access to some of the Big Dogs like Morton and the rest. And it got his name out among them.
John is apparently doing all he can to make sure First Baptist Church of Glenarden is going to have a large enough group of members to support the $45 -50 million memorial he is building out in Kettering.
Good Evening Melvin,
Dr. Charles Stanley for the most part does preach sound doctrine. The problem is not what he preach, it is what he “will not preach nor practice” that is just as dangerous; namely, separation.
The Word of Faith preaches Heresy… obviously.
Question: Why doesn’t Charles Stanley take a stand against the Word of Faith/Prosperity gospel and expose these people and their false doctrine?
Dr. Stanley has made appearances on TBN with Paul and Jan Crouch the owners of the network who definately hold to the Word of Faith/Prosprosperity doctrine.
2 Corinthians 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them and be ye separate saith the Lord and touch not the unclean thing and I will receive you.
The apostel Paul rather than ecumenicalize with Elymas the sorcerer in “Acts 13:6-11″ stearnly rebuck him and said, O full of all subtility and all mischief thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness , wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord
2Timothy 4:10 For Demas hath forsaken me having loved this present world and is departed unto Thessalonica
2 Timothy 2:4:14 - Alexander the Coppersmith did me much evil may the Lord reward him according to his works
Could it be that Dr. Charles Stanley is rooted in the ecumenical movement?
In the love of Christ Jesus,
Deb
Before my time in the Atlanta area, there were a lot of people down there that I had “respect” for. And one of the many I lost respect for is Charles Stanley.
Look what he did when Christmas fell on a Sunday. Instead of actually treating the day like a celebration of Christ’s birth AND WORSHIPING JESUS WITH FELLOW CHRISTIANS TOGETHER AND LEADING THEM IN WORSHIP AND REVERENCE FOR GOD SENDING HIS ONLY SON AS A SACRIFICE FOR OUR SINS, he had his congregation take the day off. So they could chill-out and celebrate Christmas like the rest of the world.
CULTURE DIGEST: Some megachurches are closing for Christmas
So much for all that talk of putting Jesus first and not being like the world.
(MN: An inteesting thought. What do the rest of you think about this? Should we go to Church on Christmas morning/day? )
Well…………..are these churches opening on Christmas Day for a full service if it falls on a Tuesday?? Is it wrong if they don’t??
If we are treating a day like it is for special celebration of an act of God, wouldn’t every church be open that day?
There is no sort of mandate to have any sort of Christmas celebration at all and hopefully we know the accurate history of how the church took over the pagan Winter festival, to change it to a dedication to the Lord.
But if we are going to treat it like a special day, seems to me no church would want to be closed. And when the day that the church is typically open falls on one of those days, IMHO, it makes even less sense to close the doors.
hi ic, i think rom. 14:5-6 explains each man’s position clearly. as far as saying that the congregants chilled-out and celebrated “christmas” like the rest of the world…i don’t know about that. the folk in the world (at least those i know) don’t celebrate Jesus on dec. 25th. they celebrate santa, and rudolph, get their drink and party on. no one is acknowledging the birth of the Savior- they’re interests are on the presents and food. you think those at first baptist were doing the same just cause the doors to their place of worship was closed? falalalalalalalala.
Do you think a mega-church might have had one or more curious souls interested in stopping by there that Christmas Sunday to hear about Jesus?
It’s not just about “the saints”. It’s also about the fact there may have been people wanting to hear the truth (souls the Lord is calling to himself) and Stanley left them hanging that day.
Stanley observes Christmas, so in observing it to the Lord he should have been there opening the doors that Christmas Sunday Morning. Now if Stanley didn’t hold Christmas in much of any regard, then I feel Romans 14:5-6 might be more applicable.
Sorry bro but your off to the collage of Pharisees, he has the same liberty
In Christ as you do, don’t make an opinion, the law. Remember God saves, not the Building,
Hey IC, Next time Christmas falls on a Sunday, why don’t you get a missions team together and stand in front of First Baptist to witness to all those “curious souls” the Lord is calling so they can hear about the 2000+ year old infant Jesus. Make sure you tell them that “He’s the reason for the season”. I challenge you to stand in the gap since you’re so moved with indignation that CS left the folk hanging. And why don’t you have some frankincense and myrrh burning just for emphasis. LOL Good Grief.
Maybe if I still lived in the Atlanta area just a few miles from there, I might consider your suggestion. Where I live now, all the churches/buildings or whatever makes you happy to call them, although the rest of us understand what we are talking about are usually OPEN every Christmas regardless of the day it occurs. Given the day is observed, it is observed unto the Lord in worship.
This thread was about people reaching out to help Stanley. I provided another example. I could provide others given I lived very close to his church/building or whatever makes you happy to call it, although the rest of us understand what we are talking about, but I’m really not trying to tear the man apart. It all will come to light in time.
This will be my last comment in this thread. And derrick, I know you tend to try and carry debate over into other threads, but I won’t indulge you or anyone else further regarding this matter. I lived there and maybe if you had my frame of reference I’d discuss things with you more. I have good friends that are part of that church and we have no debate, we are siblings in Christ.
Rom 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day [alike]. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
This is the same dude (CS) who was bashing stores for saying Happy Holidays. This dude is off for that reason. I think Dr. Stanley is an awesome teacher; however, he has started down a sippery slope (he did some stuff with T.D last summer here in Dallas and I was like what is going on). To the Christmas deal I am kind of up in the air. On one hand I am see the reverance behind the celebration of Christmas and on the other since I am a Sola Scriptura dude and Christ and none of the other writers of the New Testmant deemed it important enough to record it in scripture I can’t make a sound decision. I am still trying to work out the whole Easter/Ressurection deal. I understand the significance but when you start to throw in the Greek gods and bunnies I just get an icky feeling. However, Christmas is getting out of hand in the western world. By the way can anybody help me out with this. Why do companies not want their employees to say Merry Christmas (although I could care less if a pagan says it or not) but they have Easter planted everywhere?
Melvin, I hate to play take backs, but don’t post that previous comment I submitted with the link about Stanley.
While the criticism is sound, the folks behind that site are a little nutty. Probably best not to have my name associated with them.
(MN: A good decision on your part. )
You Guy’s are killing me, all I ever hear is the word the word, it’s all about the word O.K so where are we ever commanded to celebrate the birth of Christ, the apostles didn’t, so
If you want celebrate knock your self out, if not your not condemned, except by man.
See this is the nonsense that allows the pimps to prosper. We have liberty, you know freedom. Follow the word
No Mike…………the Spirit told us to do it. You’re the one who told us not to follow the Word to start with, but to follow the Spirit. What are you complaining about now??
Gary V got Joke’s, you need to stick to milk bro, Remember the word is spirit. Complain, me not at all, as a dog returns to his vomit, [so] a fool returns to his folly. You guys can debate your pagan holidays, and defend the commandments of your so called Church, baby stuff. I’m still waiting for and answer to Challenge #1, or is it too much meat for ya tender tummy.
(MN: My memory fails me. What was challenge #1? )
MN:
Challenge # 1: Get out your concordance and look up every New Testament occurrence of the word “generation” and see if it ever means “race” in any other context.
Pull them book’s GV
This is a meat thing, so I can understand if you “really don’t want to chase this around”
(MN” Actually, it goes back to me saying I really don’t want to chase this rabbit. It’s way outside the territory I want to cover on the site. )
MN:
Do it for yourself MN, maybe It’ll fill in some of them holds in your teaching.
There are a MULTITUDE of places that the words “race” or “nation” or “family” fits the context better. Why do you assume there are not??
Mat 1:1 The book of the generation (race, family) of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.
Mat 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation (nation, race) of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
Mat 11:16 But whereunto shall I liken this generation (nation, race)? It is like unto children sitting in the markets, and calling unto their fellows,
Mat 12:34 O generation (nation, race) of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
Mat 12:39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation (nation) seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
Mat 12:41 The men of Nineveh (foreign nation) shall rise in judgment with this generation (Jewish nation), and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas [is] here.
Your “challenges” need to be more challenging.I could go on indefinitely. Context determines word usage where multiple definitions are possible. The context you use makes Jesus a liar and false prophet, since all the things He said WOULD come to pass before your contrived 70AD timeline DID NOT come to pass.
Why is this so hard for you to grasp?? Why haven’t you addressed these facts??
(MN: But we aren’t going to continue this discussion, right? We’re done - both of you. The two of you are certainly welcome to discuss this off-line. )
wrong.
you got my e-mail address
Msamu703@yahoo.com.
come on bro let’s do it
Gary
I want to address it, but MN will not allow us, lets do it off line I’ll give you my phone number
WHY Mike?? It will be an expansion upon the same nonsense here. When you come out with some wacky interpretation, I will define the words for you and put them in context. You will then reply that the definitions of the Words the Holy Spirit used are meaningless, since He revealed to YOU that His written Words are subordinate to His revealed (through the “spirit”) Word even when contradictory to what He has revealed in writing.
You are a Clintonian interpreter, unable to even ascertain the meaning of the word “is”, since its definition is always subordinate to whatever you “feel” at the moment.
No thanks………you have a “spirit” who contradicts the clear teaching of the Holy Spirit in Scripture. Good luck with all that.
Not a problam Gary, keep standing on them Shoulders,
Peace
by the way Gary V. your being disingenuous, I never said not to follow the Word, Be honest Bro or I’ll tell your father on ya
No, I’m being absolutely accurate and doing FOR you what you seem incapable of doing for yourself……….following your own theology to it’s logical conclusion and finding it lacking.
You claim you never said not to follow the Word. Hmmmmmmmm…….whenever we discussed the Word, and you pulled an interpretation of a passage out of thin air, I challenged you by giving you the definition and context of the verses you were misusing.
You replied that the “Spirit” had told you that what you were spouting was accurate DESPITE the actual definition of the words and their linguistic and historical context.
In other words, in practicality you DO NOT follow the Word, because you make up definitions to suit yourself, and ignore the plain meaning of the verses.
Be honest with yourself…………you don’t follow the Word, and you try to teach others to follow your example of personal interpretation. Those are the facts. I will dredge up the quotes for the rest of the MB if you so desire.
Gary, Gary, Gary. Relax bro, It would be silly of me to deny the word of God. What your ranting about is nonsense, disagreeing over an interpretation is not rejecting the word Of God it’s rejecting your interpretation. The difference between you and I Gary is I believe that truth is revealed in the word of God by his spirit, as I said before the multitude of Christian denominations proves that man cannot be trusted, ask your self Gary why do we have so many denominations or should I say divisions if the knowledge we have as a result of all our learning has produced absolute truth in how we have interpreted the word of God? Is it because we missed the spirit of the word and are so taken by the letter of it? I challenged you because of your passion for learning and knowledge but you refuse to meet the challenge. I never implied you rejected the word of God because you disagreed with the interpretation of the word generation, which you incorrectly interpret as race, I say let’s challenge each other; you know the Iron sharpens Iron thing. But nope you want to talk a lot of nothing and then when it starts to get hot, “like a good neighbor Melvin is their” so for the folks not familiar with our discussion, I never said follow the spirit not the word, since the word of God not the word of Gary or the word of Michael or the word of any man is truth, because God is truth. I will with all the Christ in me follow my father’s word by his spirit, and humbly ask and believe that God’s Holy Spirit will indeed open my understanding, I just don’t believe that you can follow the God Of truth with mere intellect and knowledge. Come on Gary Challenge # 1, “let’s get it on” Dredge it up G
(MN: So Mike, how do you avoid coming to the conclusion that Jonah was swallowed by a whale? And what are the implications of coming to the conclusion that Jonah was swallowed by a whale?
And the woman with the issue of blood - was she crawling a on the ground, tripping people up as they walked around? What does you spirit say about this?
Gary’s point is this: If you go with definitions and meanings that “my spirit shows me” then you are not really allowing the text to speak to you. You are running with whatever strikes your fancy at the moment. Almost immediately you get into the “God showed me that this verse means…” And that really is no better than what the pimps do. Take a look at Jamal and the last clip someone directed us to. He was “going with the Spirit” and came up with trash. Yes, he said Bible words. But he so badly mangled every thing around it that he may just as well have not bothered. )
Melvin remmber it’s God’s house, trust him, im not sitting under any pimps and never was how about you? , im not involed in any cult or foolish religion why, the word, your problem and Gary’s is that you think because these pimp’s keep yelling about the spirit that it’s the spirit of God, come on guy’s are you that twisted over these foolish men, are you saying they have the spirit, because nothing could be further from the truth. Im not sure about your comments, but You insult the Holy spirit by inplying the pimps have the spirit, you do know that they do not, please tell me you know this, because if you don’t then you need to check yourself bro.Error is in the heart not God’s spirit,
You check Challange #1
forget what you’ve learned for a min, pray ask, seek, because I believe Gary and all that believe as he does are calling Jesus a false Christ. now f were going to run with this then let’s run it. an exchange of ideas is what wash’s away error.
Melvin please respond to the question, you do know that the men you are talking about do not have the spirit of God I’m I correct? I think we all need to know where you stand on this issue.
(MN: Mike, I can’t see into another man’s heart. I can, however, put some things together. 2 John 9 says that men who teach heresies DO NOT HAVE GOD. Galatians 1:8 says that those who teach these things are accursed (that means condemned, hell-bound, etc). Christians have God, and they are not accursed. From what I understand the Bible to say, it seems extremely unlikely that these men and women are saved - based on what they say and what the Bible says. )
Mike, much heat but little light. You deny the Word when you deny the definitions which give the Word meaning. The Holy Spirit MEANT very SPECIFIC things when He set forth Scripture. When He used particular words, He used them for a reason.
I submit that you have a Christ which is the product of your own imagination, for He must constantly conform to whatever whim you decide to make His Word mean at the time, using subjective interpretive methods fueled by a darkened mind.
How are we to assume YOU have the Spirit when you disregard and deconstruct the plain meaning of the Word the very Holy Spirit authored?? You deny Him when you do so.
You claim I have a false Christ because I believe WHAT IS WRITTEN AS IT IS WRITTEN. You believe YOU have a true Christ as you DISREGARD WHAT IS WRITTEN to manipulate the Word according to your preferences.
Whom do you think the Holy Spirit would honor………..the one who respects and believes the Word as WRITTEN by the Holy Spirit, or the one who disregards the Word as written in preference to private interpretation??
I’m satisfied that the MB can see the Truth.
It’s so sad that you people still don’t get it. The Church could never be closed by anyone because it’s Christ’s Church- not a building, period. But for blogging it makes for nice small talk to nowhere. God, nor Jesus nor the Apostles ever did establish a building calling it a church. Please let’s not sidestep the issue. It’s not about what people should do on so called Christmas. Christmas is pagan anyway. The issue is that no one can shut down or close the doors to The Church. So if Mr. Stanley or anyone else decides to shut down their public building on xmas- so be it.
It is crazy to think that people are staying home on the one day we should be in church. I am sad to hear that Dr, Stanley closed his church on Christmas, I really like him and I listen to him often. I will continue to listen to him and my prayers will go out for him and his ministry.
(MN: Given that Jesus wasn’t born on December 25, and the Bible nowhere tells us we are supposed to celebrate His birthday [afterall, everybody gets born, only one died for our sins and was raised again], I’m not reall clear on what the big deal is that one may choose not to spend the morning in church. How about if me and my family pray that morning, have a “Jesus Came Into the World” devotion of something.
Why should I HAVE to be with some folks in church on Christmas morning?
Fianlly, what makes a day one that we SHOULD be in church? Before the United States began celebrating Christmas as a holiday, should I have not gone to work? )
I have no problem saying that my prior statements regarding Christmas are not well rooted in scripture, especially given Colossians 2.
However, Charles Stanley is a pimp spreading false doctrine, who still should be noted as such. And he’s fallen outside of the qualifications for church leadership in 1 Timothy 3 because his wife is gone, so he does not prove to “manage his own household well”. (For if someone does not know how to manage his own household, how will he care for God’s church?) Stanley needs to step down AS HE SAID HE WOULD DO. He has not been true to his own word!
Mel and IC, i think you both are hitting on something here. This would be an interesting topic of discussion, especially going into the holiday season. Why are people being looked upon as heretics for not celebrating Dec. 25th as Christ’s B-day? like you said Mel., no where in scripture does it commands or even elude to that we should observe the birth of Christ; rather we are to remember his death and resurrection. Whats ironic about this whole Christmas thing is that most of the world (including the “Church world”) finds this day to hold so much importance with the mentioning of Jesus and his birth and the three wise-men bringing him gifts. Yet a once we are finished with our eggnog and unwraping our presents, we can give two cents about what Christ said, what his life meant while he was here, his death and resurrection, or obeying his commands.
And how many of us are giving gifts to the poor? How many are sharing the message of the gift of eternal life, the even greater gift from God?
This could be a really deep one
.
The man Santa Clause is based on was very well known for giving gifts to those in need IN SECRET.
Well IC, Santa does: “know when you are sleeping, he knows when you are wake, he knows when you are good, so be good for goodness sake”
Wow! sounds to me like God!
Man, don’t get me started..lol
Well I was talking about the Turkish guy named Nicolas, but they did sort of turn him into a super human figure.
No one shuts down for Easter.
Easter………..or Ishtar??
Don’t know how old you are, but not shutting down is a new thing. Things used to shut down for both Good Friday and the celebrated Resurrection Sunday afterwards.
Good grief…………I wish some of us would find new hobby-horses to beat to death.
WE ARE AWARE THAT THE CHURCH IS NOT A BUILDING.Every story DOES NOT HAVE TO MAKE THIS CLEAR.
Do we have to write “The church………….(errrr, JUST THE BUILDING THAT HOUSES these particular worshippers, not the church itself, since the church is the corporate Body of Christ consisting of believers from all ages both in Heaven and on Earth)………..closed it’s doors on Christmas Day (errrrrrrrr…………WHICH IS REALLY THE WINTER SOLSTICE celebration, is not mentioned in the Bible (like the Trinity), was not celebrated by the Apostles, and therefore we shouldn’t celebrate it anyway).
WE GET IT.
Good Grief Gary,
I wish I didn’t HAVE TO beat this horse concerning the word church. It is the most misused word we use (as well as the unsaved) out of context. This hobby of calling The Church a building has been going on so long, Christians feel, why make a big deal about it. I tell you why. Because every so-called pastor tells God’s people they need to come or go to church to hear the Word. If people leave, they’re condemned as leaving “the church”, and worst of all- you encourage sinners to come with you to church!
I don’t think you get it at all because if you did, you would correct the error. But since you used to sit with the boys, maybe you were telling people the same. Making them believe that their blessing was somehow tied to how often they attended the building as if God had some kind of attendance sheet.
The Greek word ekklesia used in the Septuagint was used to replace the Hebrew word for (congregation of Israel). The Tyndale bible used (congregation). Church in the bible properly translated always means assembly. Acts 19:32,39,41
I guess I’m getting close to a ban now. 1 Chr. 16:22 LMBO!
You say we get it- but if that was the case, then I.C. wouldn’t be so livid when Charles Stanley closed the doors! This goes to show how traditions usurp the Word of God. Mark. 7:13
Big G, Can you tell me which side of the fence you’re on? If it’s the side of tradition then you will have the Gladiator to contend with. OOOOOOoooooooo. LOL
PS. This goes for you too Big Mel
(MN: Actually, you’re getting close to boring me, which can result in banning on any particular posting and resulting discussion.
Let’s try again. Gary and I both know that the church is not the building. Most of the readers know that the church is not the building. It almost seems as if you are insisting on not hearing that. Yes, the church is, as GaryV said, the members of the body of Christ, past and present. We meet in a building, a room, down by the river, in the catacombs or at Panera’s (I meet with a bible study group in Landover as a matter of fact). For a while, a church I worshipped with, met in the dance room at the YWCA. Neither of us believes the building is the church. Most of the readers know this as well.
Now, unless you can think of a shortened way of saying “the Body of Christ, both past and present and not the building” then I would ask you to do a bit of extrapolation and, when you hear the word “church” try not to think that we are saying that the building is the church and that we have to meet in the building which we are mistakenly calling the church.
You miss the point with IC. He’s not insisting the church is a building. He’s promoting the idea of worshiping together to commemorate the arrival of Jesus Christ on earth.
Now, try to focus here and stop trying to convince us that the church is not the building. I know that. Gary knows that. IC knows that. Most of the readers know that. But somehow, you seem to refuse to recognize that we know that. Here, let me say it again in case you missed it - THE CHURCH IS NOT THE BUILDING, IT NEVER HAS BEEN, IT NEVER WILL BE.
Give it a rest. Please.
By the way, it is not my job to correct every error presented by the commenters. It is certainly not my responsibility to make sure everybody says things exactly the same way. Once I understand wnat they mean, I’ll work with it. You should do the same thing. But if you think something is in error, speak out on it. Just make sure you’re not aguing where there is no disagreement. )
Well said Mel……….Derrick, I’m allowing for the possibility that you haven’t readf as regularly as I may assume. I was a pastor………..I didn’t LOSE my position, I resigned. I’ve been offered multiple pastoral positions since that time. I turned them down. Why?? I feel no compunction to support a building. I want my money going to support the poor, the lost, and the forgotten.
Mrs Mav and I had a looong convo about this months ago. In fact, I date our friendship from the exchange. I agree with you on the subject…………the fact is, most EVERYONE agrees with you on the subject. It’s not new revelation. You can find it in Luther’s writings, the Westminster Confession, Jonathan Edwards, Spurgeon, Calvin, etc etc etc.
IC simply points out that the BUILDING these believers congregate within was closed, and since it is the place where they normally meet, its closure prevented their CORPORATE worship. Nothing more.
I respect your position, and love your passion……..but you’re preaching to the choir my friend.
Red flags start to rise when hear statments against the local body. Most of us know the Greek word for Chruch Mr. Gladiator but thanks I guess a little reminder won’t hurt nobody. I have seen a couple of statements about the local body though and maybe I am interpreting them wrong. The local body exist for a few reasons which are extremely importnat some being :corporate worship, community, and service. But I think ACCOUNTABILITY is probably the most important. In our western culture we hold very tightly to our autonomy which can be dangerous for a Christian. If we are not plugged in somewhere our lives can’t be brought under the magnifying glass to be examined. We can become loose cannons when it comes to lifestyle and the interpretation of scripture. The other problem in living Christianity out in a vacuum is that my issues our not being worked out. You will never know how selfish, self-righteous, judgmental, and egotistical you are until you live your faith out in a community. I wanted to respond because there is a movement today (I think pastors have to be careful) of doing Chrstiantiy at home, watching sermons, studying MY bible, having MY prayer life and minding MY business, and the Great Commission falls by the way side. God bless.
Mr.woods, what you said is nice pastor talk for babes in Christ. Read Philemon:1:2 Remember I never said what you said about the home and as far as the great commission, it wasn’t directed to you. We need to be plugged into Christ. There is no special place to meet. We’re not confined to one special place- that’s tradition. God Bless.
I agree. But my reference is not to babes only. We all no matter how “spriritual” we have become need to be plugged in to a body. Rather that is a home church (which at the point in time Philemon met, were all house churches, wondered why you used that one) or a larger number of believers in a building. We still have to be extremely careful not overemphasize my personal walk and neglect community. Babes aren’t the only ones in danger of what I warned of. We all are.
Are you saying that a home assembly of believers is not plugged into the body?
No Mike………..he just clearly stated that house churches are indeed fellowship. He is simply warning against the Lone Ranger mentality of many, who “Forsake the assembling” of the saints.
Assemble in a house………..in a “church” building…….in a park……….whatever. Just ASSEMBLE, draw from the gifts of God in each other, care for each other, provoke one another to Godliness, be accountable to one another. THAT is the reason for assembly…..not to support a structure.
Wow Gary V we agree on something at last,Thats an start to something.
thank you, G
My goodness………..THERE’S HOPE
Derrick,Mike, and Gary in harmony. A cord of three strands is not easily broken…….
ok, you guys, group hug.
Kum-bayah!…..
Nope! Not what I am saying. What I am saying is are you really plugged in to a home church. If you are truly doing a home church I have no problem what-so-ever. I do mean none. I actually believe that you may be more safe instead of being plugged into a body of belivers who meet in a mult-million dollar facility and refuse to preach the Gospel, Disciple, and live in holiness. As long as you have the elements I listed (Acct, discipleship, community, worship) you are fine. The issue I have are with Lone Ranger Chrstians doing Chrsitianity like a monk on a mountain.
to Melvin:
The HOLY SPIRIT and the WORD OF GOD are interchangeable; you cannot have the HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD and not have the WORD OF GOD AS REVILED IN SCRIPTURE.
O.k. Melvin now that agree that THE Pimp’s DO NOT have the spirit of God let’s move on.
My dialog with Gary about the need of trusting the Spirit of God, the Spirit that was given to Christ’s body to guide the body in all truth by The Word should be trusted with the verification of all that we are exposed to especially when it comes to man teaching man the word of God. Pimps don’t have the same spirit as believers have so trusting in the Holy Spirit is not doing the same as the pimps because they (the Pimps) don’t have the Spirit of God. Their will be some disagreements with interpretations or historical points between true believers but scripture must be allowed to bear witness of it’s self, we should not make our finite understanding absolute truth, the Spirit of God that each believer is given must be exercised so as to bring the believer to maturity, any influence from the mature believer must diminished as the ability to discern the will and Word of God by the Holy Spirit increases in the new believer.
I’m not trying to be mean spirited when I use the fraise “faithless” what I’ve been trying to convey to you and Gary and at lest now you Melvin agree that the Pimps have another spirit, not the Holy Spirit. We differ in that I believe we are to be weaned from the tutelage of man or we will never truly mature in the things of God and bear much fruit. The Old Testament is our school teacher but once grown the adult no longer be treated as a child, in order to properly mature the adult Christian should became more and more dependent upon the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of truth ( truth can only be found in the Word of God, but it is spiritually discerned) and less dependent on man. In the world an adult dependent upon their parent never learns to be productive in society, they become unbalanced and dependent. Christian leadership and the Pimps feel the need to LORD over the babe in Christ insisting on their dependence making the young believer a weak non productive and dependent believer tossed back and forth. This is why the Pimps, false religions continue to prosper. I believe the mature believer filled with the Spirit of God (the Word) are to direct the babe’s in Christ to dependency on the Holy Spirit and not themselves, at that point they will know the Word of God because the Word will be in them in Spirit and truth. Again so as not to be misunderstood The Holy Spirit and the word of God are interchangeable; you cannot have the HOLY SPIRIT and not have the WORD of GOD. You can Have the word of God (the bible) and not have the Holy Spirit and that’s what the Pimps have. Remember you will know them by the fruit they bear.
Much Love Mel, Gary and all
My the God and father of our Lord Jesus Christ bless you in all faith and understanding
Mike, you say that the Word and the Spirit are interchangeable. Well, if you REALLY believe that, why is it that you renounce the Written Word when it contradicts what the “spirit” is telling you??
I mean………..if they are “interchangeable”, shouldn’t the written Word of the Holy Spirit be in complete harmony with whatever you feel He is “revealing” to you?? Yet, time and again, you untether the “revealed” Word from the written Word, tossing out the written Word to accept your rather unique interpretations of Scripture.
Do you know what “interchangeable” means?? It means two IDENTICAL parts that can be substituted seamlessly one for the other…..In other words, your “revealed” Word MUST be in PERFECT HARMONY with the WRITTEN WORD, or they are NOT “interchangeable”. They are DIFFERENT and CONTRADICTORY.
Either you have a schizophrenic Holy Spirit who contradicts Himself, or you are dealing with two entirely DIFFERENT spirits, or you have a fleshly wisdom pitted against the Word of God.
By refusing to validate your “revelations” against the Written Word, by taking a text and ignoring the definitions and context when it doesn’t support your “revelations”, you destroy your claim that the Word and the Spirit are “interchangeable” for you. They are “interchangeable” for most of us here, since we check the definitions and context against our “revelations” and either accept or deny the revelations based upon the comparison.
Thank God Henry Ford didn’t accept your rather odd definition of “interchangeable”, or we’d all still be riding horses.
It is Gary, my problem is not the word it’s your interpretation of it, again if your interpretation is absolute why are their differences at all, you have all truth, should the body contact Gary when it need’s truth, should we sit at the feet of Gary to make sure we’ve got it right, why do we have conflicting denominations if Gary’s got the truth, you should change your name from Gary V. to Gary absolute. I will continue to challenge you on the word generation used in Matt 24, because your absolute truth has some holes, and all your wisdom and learning has come up a bit short, please if there are other’s don’t be afraid of the big bad wolf, he’s a pussy cat.
(MN: GaryV isn’t claiming that his interpretation is the interpretation to end all interpretations (why do you semmingly insist on dragging everything out to seemingly distorted extremes?). Rather he is suggesting that your interpretations are generally not based on an objective look at the section of Scripture you are working with. “Trusting the Spirit” to interpret the Scriptures for you is a recipe for disaster. If that is all you did (”trust the spirit), then you could come to the conclusion that Jonah was swallowed by a whale, Jesus was born on December 25, and that the date of the crucifixion and resurrection really do move around from year to year. You might also conclude that David and Jonathan were homosexuals because they loved each other with a love greater than that between a man and a woman.
GaryV’s point, again, is that you have to use more than some mystical inner testimony to determine what Scripture means. Yes, you have to depend on the Spirit for illumination and guidance in application. But the initial meaning - what the author meant when he wrote it? That’s going to come from prayer, study, and more study. Anything less and you get Creflo Dollar who says that Faith is a substance and words are containers for that substance and base the statement on Hebrews 11:1 )
Well said Melvin…………..and Mike, you ARE right about one thing.
I AM a pussy cat….cute and sweet.
hi melville, you lost me on your mn to michael. i’ve read the michael/gary debates ( and frankly munching on all these carrot sticks have got me feeling like bugs bunny- though, my eyesight has improved somewhat) anyhoo, it doesn’t seem to me that michael was saying that we’ve got to trust some mystical spirit to lead us but rather that we need to rely on the Holy Spirit ALONG w/ the Word of God for direction. his last post didn’t seem like he was advocating mysticism at all. to me, it looks like he is saying you can’t have the Holy Spirit w/out The Word- but people can know the Word to some degree (like the false teachers) yet be totally void of God’s Spirit that’s why they twist it. what’s distorted about that?
and what has the spirit got to do w/ jonah being swallowed by the fish and all the other examples you gave?
(MN: Mike is saying that there is no need to study History, Language, or other things. We can simply read it and trust God to show us what it means. This is false. KJV says the Jonah was swallowed by a whale. If all I do is trust “the spirit” I could (and I have heard people do this on different subjects) build an entire sermon on what the whale means, etc, etc, etc. and say it was produced by “the spirit.” But I would also be wrong. Jonah was actually swallowed by a great fish. Mike doesn’t explicitly promote mysticism, but the net result of hearing from the spirit, as opposed to studying to show yourself approved, is exactly as subjective. It’s mysticism (however limited) when a person says “God showed me that this means…” and they are not talking about the results of study (just a quiet little voice that says “this means such and such…”). Illumination and application will be Spirit directed. That is why preachers with integrity get beat up so badly by their own sermons. It is, without the shroud of humanism, the same as Mike saying “This verse means such and such to me.” No one cares what it means to him. We want to know what it meant to the man who wrote it and what God meant when He inspired it. That will allow us to understand it properly and move us a long way to developing a valid application for our lives.
Mike gets both meaning and application “by the spirit”. And that is a very dangerous approach. Ask David Koresh, Jim Jones, and the followers of the pimps. Heck, ask the priests and followers in the Catholic church.T heir primary approach is “God showed me that this means…” And most Catholics I know will say “The Church says this means….” )
Hi Mav!!! You really had to folow this from its inception, LO MANY AGES PAST
This began when Mike quoted a Scripture passage, then proceeded to “interpret” it by the “spirit”……….of course, the interpretation he offered had ZERO to do with the text or it’s meaning.
When I responded that the text certainly did NOT support his interpretation (complete with definitions, context, etc), I was notified that the Spirit told him that he was right, and I was wrong.
No attempt was made to buttress his evaluation of the Word………just “The Spirit said so.”
It’s a shame there isn’t a search engine on this site that could specify the posts of an individual, or I could find the original debate.
Michael does NOT advocate checking “revelation” against what is written and rejecting that which does not align with the Word no matter how he protests to the contrary NOW. He has made it clear that the written Word is subordinate to whatever he feels the “spirit” is telling him regardless of whether it violates the text.
As my post indicates, I DO believe you use the Word AND the Spirit by “testing the spirits” against the Word. Mike tests the Word against the “spirits”, and rejects the Word where it does not align.
As Melvin said, it’s the nonsensical sort of garbage that runs rampant throughout the church today……….”Well, what do those verses mean TO YOU??”
That is NOT the pertinent question……….the pertinent question IS “What do those verses MEAN??? What was the Holy Spirit SAYING???”.
God has exalted HIS WORD above even HIS NAME for a reason………..so that by the Word we can “test the spirits”. The Bereans did not test what Paul was saying by getting a “revelation” via a spirit untethered to the text. They did not try to determine what the Words of Paul or the Scripture meant “to them”.
They searched the Word to see if what Paul taught was Truth. Did Paul’s words comport with what was written?? Then they were Truth. As simple as that.
Gary V, MN
Mystical inner testimony please, you guy’s are twisting my word’s, I clearly stated that interpretation’s may differ, If differing with Gary’s interpretation of the word generation makes the interpretation based on history mystical, I’m not sure what to call your interpretation. Thayer’s Greek English Lexicon of the NT: defines the word “genea ” “the whole multitude of men living at the same time”
Vines again defines it the same way
I never said I did not study, I stated that all I’ve learned I’v turned over to
the Holy Spirit for God’s understanding.
If Thayer’s and Vines are two of the shoulders you’re standing on how is it our interpretation differ?
Below is my mystical inner revolution of the word generation used in Matt 34:24:
Vine’s definition of genea:
Genea: signifies…a race of people possessed of similar characteristics, pursuits, etc… or of a whole multitude of men living at the same time, Matthew 24:34; Mark 13:30; Luke 1:48; 21:32; 21:32 and especially those of the Jewish race living at the same period, Matt. 11:16, etc. (MN: Also, there was a good deal more in the definitions than you repeated here. )
This all but kills the popular theory that when Jesus said, “This generation will not pass away until all these things take place” (Matt. 24:34), he meant that the Jewish race would not pass away (MN: Only if you take one definition and ignore the other. If you do that, you have to explain why you take one and ignore the other. Context. Otherwise you have to assume Pilate had a pointy nose and big ears, since JEsus called hima fox. ) until all of the things that he described had transpired. If Gary V or anyone doesn’t like what Greek scholarship has concluded about the word genea and its use in Matthew 24:34, they can take it up with Vine’s and Strong’s! . And Gary there’s nothing wrong with the shoulders your standing on it’s just the Holy Spirit is truth.
One interpretation down, bring it bro (MN: Not really. AND AGAIN, WE ARE DONE DISCUSSING ESCHATOLOGY. DIDN’T THE HOLY SPIRIT MAKE THAT CLEAR? IF NOT, LET ME TRY AGAIN - STOP! Here, let me say it slowly: S…>T….O….P!)
LOL@THE Holy Spirit making it clear!
I will stop MN, just through you and your peep’s would like to know their’s truth out side of your tradition.
tradition, tell me mike do you and your peep’s know anying thing……….
Scripture tells us that we are to rely on the Holy Spirit’s illumination to gain insights into the meaning and application of Scripture (John 16:12-15; 1 Corinthians 2:9-11).
It’s the Holy Spirit’s work to throw light upon the Word of God so that the believer can assent to the meaning intended and act on it. Full comprehension of the Word of God is impossible without dependence on the Spirit of God, for He who inspired the Word (2 Peter 1:21) is also its supreme interpreter.
Precisely Judge Not…..which is why someone’s “revelation” must be REJECTED when it contradicts what is WRITTEN, since the Holy Spirit does NOT contradict Himself.
gary stop wasting time with mike just redeemed time.
Mike…………did you even READ the definition you JUST GAVE??
Genea: signifies…a race of people (NATION!!!!!) possessed of similar characteristics, pursuits
Thank you for confirming I am right.
You’re really not very good at this……….
BTW Mel…………I’m not arguing eschatology, but methodology. I couldn’t resist pointing out how he leapfrogged right over the definition I gave to get to his definition though
MICHAEL SAMUELS YOU NEED TO HANG IT UP U LOST MIKE IT’S OVER. WHATS UP WITH U ,ARE U SAVE OR NOT.MAY BE NOT IT HAPPENED ALL READY WITH U. (AD70) U DIG. THE MAN.
MICHAEL SAMUELS YOU NEED TO HANG IT UP. U LOST MIKE IT’S OVER. WHATS UP WITH U ,ARE U SAVE OR NOT.MAY BE NOT IT HAPPENED ALL READY WITH U. (AD70) U DIG. THE MAN.