Look people, this site isn’t about DL, Homo, GLBT, or any other sexual perversion. It’s about doctrine. But it’s interesting that the very condition causing the church to sink into a mire of heresy, the very condition causing the pastors to fail to speak the truth, is apparently the same circumstance making it possible for the secret and not so secret homosexual to operate in leadership positions in the church organization. To illustrate this, let’s take a look at the church in Corinth and compare their actions to the general actions the Milquetoast saints take in the face of sin.
Here’s a little set up. In 1 Cor 5:1-11 Paul laid down the standard for responding to immoral behavior in the church.
1. It is actually reported that there is immorality among you, and immorality of such a kind as does not exist even among the Gentiles, that someone has his father’s wife.
2. You have become arrogant and have not mourned instead, so that the one who had done this deed would be removed from your midst.
3. For I, on my part, though absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged him who has so committed this, as though I were present.
4. In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you are assembled, and I with you in spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus,
5. I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
6. Your boasting is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough?
7. Clean out the old leaven so that you may be a new lump, just as you are in fact unleavened. For Christ our Passover also has been sacrificed.
8. Therefore let us celebrate the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.
9. I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people;
10. I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world.
11. But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler–not even to eat with such a one.
Allow me to explain this in plain language.
Apparently, a member of the church in Corinth was living with his step mother. That is, he was knocking boots with her. This was being done out in the open. A lot of people knew about it. It was being done publicly. People knew about it because they could see it.
Notice Paul’s comment at this point: they had become arrogant. What was an indication of that arrogance? The fact that they had failed to remove the fornicator from their midst.
Paul then makes a statement that must really send some of you into a hissy fit. In verse 3 he says that he (Paul) has already judged this fellow. And the word here for judge is krino (a transliteration). The context indicates the idea of pronouncing something or someone to be wrong.
In verses 4 and 5 he decided to turn the man over to Satan for the destruction of his flesh and seems to desire the salvation of the man in the day of the Lord. Notice he doesn’t say that all he is going to do is pray the man will turn away, although I am sure, knowing Paul, that he did want the man to repent.
In verse 6 he makes it clear why the church at Corinth should remove the man from their midst. A little leaven (sin) leavens the entire ball of dough. In other words, if they were to tolerate sin in their midst, the sin would get worse and worse. In verse 7 he again tells them again to “clean out the old leaven” so they can be consist with who they say they are , holy, without sin.
In verse 8 he again encourages them to walk in sincerity and truth, not in sin and malice. According to verse 9, he told them in an earlier letter to not associate with immoral people. In verses 10 and 11 he again explains the context of those instruction and narrows it down to people who attend church (profess to be Christians , any so-called brother) and engage in immorality. He was so hard over about it that the Christians at the church were not even to eat with such a person.
To sum it up, Paul says the Corinthians are to take action against the man who is living with his mother. They are not to simply pray. They are to act, to remove the leaven from among them. Otherwise the sin drags the church down. And notice, the letter was written to the saints at Corinth, not just the elders or some specially equipped group of folks.
Now, let’s compare that behavior and that set of instructions to what the mystics who have made comments to the previous posts say. Specifically, here is a comment from Daren. He made the comment late last night or early this morning (June 14th) I do believe. He says (and I really want you to notice the complete lack of appeal to ANY scripture):
As you already know, the term “DL” refers to black men who are undercover bi-sexuals. Indeed this rarely mentioned issue deserves its own posting. It’s plaguing the church and black communities. Our churches are too quiet about it. I’m also a member of FBCG, and I’m ticked off about what I’ve seen. It’s only a matter of time before God’s wrath comes down on some of its key ministry staff.
I’m very dismayed about FBCG and other churches’ “tolerance of homosexuals in highly visible positions, such as music ministry, teaching, or church offices”. This sets a poor example for those who need deliverance and those who need to grow spiritually. Allowing homosexuals to actively partake in ministry totally makes void any sermon against homosexuality!
Question: How can a pastor preach against homosexuality then ALLOW a “homosexual” to lead praise and worship? How can so many saints sit back and be comfortable in an environment that contradicts God’s word? Even an unsaved person should recognize something’s not right about this picture.
This nonchalant acceptance of homosexuality at FBCG is the only thing that lowers my respect for that ministry. Yet it’s not just the men. According to my wife, there’s a lot of “lesbians” in the house also. Just like a man (a real one) can discern a homosexual easier. Women are quicker to discern a lesbian. If anyone believes one needs to “catch someone in the act” in order to know they’re a homosexual, they are very naïve and wrong. If the Holy Spirit is operating in one’s life, he will reveal truths also.
FBCG isn’t the only church with homosexual issues. That’s the main comment I hear about Greater Mt. Calvary when their church is mentioned. Today’s saints are losing a major battle over the devil when they allow themselves to embrace homosexuality and bisexuality (especially within ministry positions). You can preach and talk about homosexuality. But if you don’t do nothing about it, that’s embracing it.
I totally agree that intercessors should pray for Brother H. and FBCG regarding their homosexuality and bi-sexuality issues.
Daren’s dismay is that the church would tolerate homosexual behavior from those in highly visible positions. There was no indication the man who lived with him mom was in a position of leadership. He was sinning, the church was to correct him. The Milquetoast saints say “who are we to judge?” and keep silent, hiding behind claims of piety.
Ignoring for the moment Daren’s incredibly bigoted statements, and looking just at his astounding Biblical ignorance, he goes on to say that God gives the “spiritual” person one of the gifts of the spirit , you know the one , Gaydar, the ability to detect gay people just by looking at them. You don’t have to be a witness to anything, the spirit will simply reveal it to you. Shades of the Salem witch hunts. Max and one other person also promoted this fairy tale.
Daren talks about today’s saints losing a major battle over the devil. This is bogus. They aren’t losing a battle, they simply aren’t fighting. They (like the writers of this and other comments) are simply sitting back, saying nothing and doing nothing. If they want to get the homosexuals out all they have to do is confront them. And if the leadership forbids it, then the leadership will be showing themselves for who they really are. Then again, it almost sounds as if he would not be upset if the homosexuals were there as long as they are not in leadership positions.
These clowns are willing to get twisted out of shape because the pastors are not calling out the homosexuals. But these same clowns get twisted out of shape when some one calls out the pastor for preaching bad doctrine and destroying the foundation on which to call out the homosexuals. And still they say and do nothing.
A friend of mine (he attends FBCG) has told me straight up that he really doesn’t care much about doctrine or politics. But once the same-sex marriage thing got going last year, he tried to get deep into both. I asked him why the sudden interest and he quite honestly told me that this (the homosexual influence) would affect his kids. But what he never seemed to understand (just like the people who are making these idiotic claims about possessing Gaydar) is that doctrine (teachings from the Bible on right and wrong, the nature of God, etc) is what protects the church.
The Milquetoasts like Daren and Max can’t complain about homosexuality unless they make an appeal to the Bible. But they haven’t. All they are able to appeal to is their personal disgust at the practice. And in giving into that they actually end up dehumanizing the very people they want to help escape.
If the homosexuals are making the music ministry or some area successful and it is helping to draw people into the church, why would the pastor complain? None of you are going to say anything. You’re just going to sit back and wait until the judgment of God falls on the place and then sit there shaking your heads and clucking, never realizing that you could have save the seduced young men, the humiliated pastor, and others all the trouble by holding the pastor accountable and insisting they leaven be removed from among you.
Daren, Max, and the rest, if and when judgment does fall on the homosexual-friendly churches, you will have only yourselves to blame. Like the watchman in Ezekiel 33:1-7, if you see sin being tolerated and do or say nothing about it, the blood is on your hands.
A slight change in the mechanics of comments for this subject. Only the first five contributors get to make comments. Once that happens, I will close down the comment box. In other words, if you see the “Something to Say” box, you can make a comment. My “Biblical Cripple” detector has been off the scale for the last several days and I don’t want to subject what few readers who grace this site with their presence with more of the silliness they been getting from the likes of Max and folks.
Hey. Where’s the comment section for “Down Low in the Ministry”? That’s the only section I want to comment on!! So please return that option as soon as possible. There’s probably others who want to comment in that section also. Thanks.
No. The posting is closed to comment. None of you (the people with Gaydar) were saying anything of any particular note.
By the way anonymous, did you even read this posting (Whose Blood is on Your Head)? Or are you simply drawn to the salacious?
Melvin
Not only are churches tolerating homosexuality but I have just left a church that allows their Bishop (who is a married man) to sleep with young women in the church. There are members of this church who actually knows what is going on but refuse to say anything. They put blinders on as if nothing is going on. What are the churches of today coming to. These type of actions are making it very hard to see Christ or the neccessity in serving him, when you have unseen things of this nature going on and it appears to be acceptable.
Remember Precious (nothing personal here, that’s what you signed on as), the standard in places like that is “Who are you to judge? God will make the corrections.”
Or course this seems to be embedded with the belief that God is going to mystically straighten everything out.
If you left the church you described, you did a good thing. If you ever run across someone considering attending there, know that God wants you to warn them about what goes on there. Otherwise, it is like standing by the side of the road on a dark rainy night, refusing to warn the passersby that the bridge is out up ahead. Be willing to warn others.
But remember, the lack of attention to what the Bible says allows the wolves to get away with what they are doing. The sheep stand around waiting to get sheared because they don’t know what their responsibilities are or they choose not to act on them. A pastor who sleeps with the young girls is no pastor and deserves only to be turned out. And if they are young enough, he should be locked up.
But all of this depends on a sound view of the Bible and an understanding of what it says. None of the people who have been commenting here and in the Down Low posting seem to have those qualities. I could be wrong. Perhaps some of you out there could show me where I am mistaken.
Melvin
Re: Tolerance of Homosexuality/DLs in church
I wouldn’t blame the saints especially within a large ministry with a host of other ministers. FBCG has a least 20 ministers including some ordained reverends. Why didn’t one of them have enough God in them to approach Pastor Jenkins about the issues?
You don’t deserve to be in “ministry” if you cannot stand up for righteousness!!! As a minister, you should be able to recognize and admonish homosexuals/DLs within your church. When you sit quiet and ignore it, that shows you have more loyalty towards man than God and His standards.
It’s common knowledge that the Music Ministry has a huge number of homosexuals. I wouldn’t be surprised if the figure is over 30%. So it’s up the individual churches to set and maintain GODLY standards. They should never leave the selection up to musicians and musical directors.
ATTN G and Daren:
I admire your boldness. People may hate and criticize you. Yet your actions are really in line with the scriptures previously given by Max. You obviously fear God not man. So no weapon formed against you will prosper. Do not leave FBCG until God is ready to move you.
ATTN Everybody:
The Bible says that Jesus is coming back for a glorious church “without spot or wrinkle”. Yet the “head” has to be right in order for the “tail” (saints) to be right. Or as Jesus would say, “If the blind leads the blind, they both will fall into a ditch”. So be very prayerful about the leadership wherever you attend church.
Four comments:
1. You have got to be kidding me. You guys are railing on the “ministers and reverends” for sitting quietly and ignoring it. What the heck are you doing?
2. If the person responsible for the music program is an obedient Christian, why would it matter if he chose the people for his staff?
3. What are G and Daren doing that requires such boldness? They themselves say all they are going to do is “pray and fast.” How do you know the reverends and ministers aren’t doing the same thing?
4. I hate to break this to you, but the pastor is not the head of the church, or the Body. Jesus Christ is the head.
G, Daren, Max, Terry, and Anonymous: If you can’t do any better than the tripe you have presented under the guise of spirituality, don’t spend any time making comments. I doubt I will post them. It’s interesting to note that out of all the keystrokes you folks made, there were maybe three references to the Bible. And I believe you got at least two of those wrong.
As a really smart man once said (paraphrasing it slightly) , You get the church you deserve. Your church has homosexuals in leadership positions? From what you yourselves have said all you are going to do is use your Gaydar, then fast and pray about the situation Read her - sit on your fat butts and do nothing).
Finally: Max, G, terry and Daren , unless you do a bunch better than you have been doing, don’t expect me to post any more of your comments. I owe the readers better than that.
Melvin
For numerous reasons, this is a very dangerous website! It’s not going to gain you any respect or recognition. Regarding 1 Corinthians 5:1-13, people should read it for themselves and not be quick to run with Melvin’s interpretation.
Since Apostle Paul did not call any name, he does appear to be addressing the congregation at large. In verses 2b, 7, and 13b, Apostle Paul tells them to remove the “sexually immoral” person from their church. So there’s no doubt Paul is essentially saying, “put the homosexuals/DLs out of your church or ministry”!
Yet there’s an unspoken question: Was Paul telling “any” saint in the church to approach the sinner and toss him out? That answer is not legibly clear (in scripture). So it’s a matter of individual interpretation.
Although the answer is not clear, we believe Paul would like someone in “authority” to do that. In his absence, there’s got to be a pastor and other ministers present at that Corinthian church. If someone without authority approached a member to put them out, the first thing they’d say is “Who gave you the authority to put someone out of this church?!”
In verse 6, Paul makes it clear that the allowance of sexual immorality will have an impact on the entire congregation. If not addressed, this sin will spread like a disease throughout the congregation. Today, many churches are plagued by it because they failed to address the homosexuals/bisexuals when they FIRST entered the church many years ago. Now the churches are wallowing in sin!
Melvin, you have a rude habit of condemning anyone whose comments don’t align with yours. Frankly, we believe you have a problem handling the truth. In reality, Max, G, Daren, and Terry spoke the truth, whole truth, and nothing but the TRUTH (with or without scriptures).
They only failed in one sense. They failed to mention the existence of DL’s in the deacon and pulpit sections of FBCG! Once “leaven” gets into the pulpit, you can forget it. It’s extremely difficult to “purge out” bad leadership. That requires a divine move of God.
Furthermore, some pastors have used the pulpit to “manipulate” their congregations from speaking out against homosexuality and bi-sexuality. During a biblestudy, the FBCG congregation was “falsely” taught against “judgment and exposure of sin”. Last year, that was Pastor Jenkin’s attempt to keep their sins from being exposed.
Now can you see the big picture? Through false teachings, the FBCG members have been programmed NOT to speak out. That’s why their ministers can sit in the pulpit every Sunday and act like nothing “wrong” is going on.
We’re waiting on direction from God concerning our continuation of membership at FBCG.
Mike and Pam -
I love it! Thank you for saying this is a dangerous site. I’m getting the impression it is having something of an impact. I stopped trying to be popular a long time ago. Better to please Christ than men.
But a couple or three things:
1. I was not saying a single church goer should kick someone out. Saying that doesn’t even make sense. Rather, a single church goer, if he knows irrefutably (no Gaydar inputs allowed) that something is going on, should confront another church goer (in keeping with Galatians 6:1,2 - he who is spiritual, not ‘he who has been ordained or licensed by the pastor”). And the initial confrontation should be for the purpose of restoring the brother (or sister). However, if the brother doesn’t want to turn, then the situaltion should be elevated. If when confronted by the leadership, the person refuses to modify their behavior, then they should be removed. If, when the person who discovered the aberrant behavior takes the problem to the leadership, the leadership flatly refuses to do anything, the “he who is spiritual” should leave that particular organization. It should be obvious at that point that leadership is simply playing at church.
2. I’ve condemned no one. I have, however, stated that they are not speaking or acting in accordance with scripture. And I would ask again: What have these four anonymous people DONE that is so bold? The only thing I can see is they have said “we can detect a homosexual when we see one (Gaydar). But even when we detect one, we are not going to actually DO anything about it. This is at variance with 1 Cor 5, Galatians 6, and others.
3. Your attributing such a wicked motive to John’s faulty teaching seems more judgmental and condemning than anything I have said. I don’t believe I have ever accused him of manipulating you in order to excuse open sin. But at least you recognize that the result of turning from sound doctrine is an acceptance of sin. Much of what you have said in your post is at best hearsay and at worst gossip and slander. Yet you pass it off as some revelation from God. I don’t know if what you have said is true or not. I feel a little soiled posting your comment. But my webmaster keeps telling me I should either post everything in a person’s comment or delete it altogether.
4. If you are considering whether or not to leave First Baptist then let me encourage you to leave. If you stay, having yourself clearly identified some serious difficulties, you will end up like Deacon Lee - no matter what happens, you will find a reason to stay. The Bible says that you are to get out from among them. If you’re waiting for a bad piece of bacon to speak to you, you may be there and expose your wife and children to more really bad stuff. You have already bought into some of the more useless mystical foolishness.
By the way, the divine move of God doesn’t have to be the ground opening up and swallowing the building, or striking this or that person dead. It could be nothing more than people walking away from the organization, leaving only the unsaved to play at church. But you have to act and not simply pontificate and posture.
While I’m certainly NOT God, here is some direction: LEAVE WHILE YOU HAVE THE WILL TO DO SO!
By the way, this is the last comment for this posting. The comment section is now closed.
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