It’s as if the religious lemmings out there all think with the same brain. I just moderated a posting from “We Will Draw All Men Unto Us - With Entertainment”. Here is the text of the Two-Year-First-Baptist Member’s (TYFBM) comment.
Melvin, I’m a FBCG member. I’ve been here for over 2 years. I’m only here because GOD planted me here for His reasons.
Someone told me about your website. I skimmed through a few things under the “John K. Jenkins” category. Yet my real question is “what spirit lead (sp) YOU to create this website”? It certainly was not the spirit of God. Why? His word tells us to “do all to the glory of God”. There’s nothing about gossiping or downing people that glorifies God.
So what. No pastor and no church is perfect. I’ve been to the large and small ones. I haven’t yet been to a church where I agreed with everything said and done. Yet God’s not leading me to talk about it. Instead, if God is doing the revealing, He would want me to pray about any issues of concern.
So what. CWT and the E. Ministry are “weak”. Yet that’s not your problem or my problem. My ministry will never be limited to this church.
So what. A lot people here are “fake”. They gossip and turn others who you may not know against you. Yet, it’s up to the victim to be strong enough to “ignore the devils”. Nobody can stop what GOD has planned for me!
If you want to pray about something, pray about the homosexuals who are in visible positions. The Music Ministry at FBCG and numerous churches are polluted with them. Not to mention, the undercover “DL” preachers and saints.
There’s too much wickedness going on inside the church that needs PRAYER not talk/gossip. So I challenge you to re-evaluate your development and maintenance of this website. Also remember: “Whatsoever seed YOU sow you shall reap”.
So, let’s take it from the top. If TYFBM thinks what he/she has written, I’m certain there are others who think the same thing. I may as well address it here, as a post rather than as in a response in previous post.
First, this isn’t gossip. Here is the definition of gossip:
Rumor or talk of a personal, sensational, or intimate nature.
I have purposely avoided the personal in virtually all of the postings. If it isn’t public and doctrinally related, I generally - I repeat - generally don’t touch it. This site isn’t about personal foibles. It’s about doctrinal, serious doctrinal error.
Second, what spirit led me to create this website? The same spirit who wrote the Bible. A couple of references are as follows:
Romans 16:17, 18 says that we are to turn away from people who teach a different gospel
Galatians 1:8 says that those who teach a different gospel are anathema, or accursed.
2 Thess 3:6 says we are to turn away from those who live an unruly life and do not abide in the traditions (or teachings) of the apostle
Titus 3:10 says we are to reject the factious man after the second or third warning
2 John 10 tells us not to welcome those who preach a different doctrine
1 Tim 1:3 says we should instruct men not to teach strange doctrines
Certainly I should pray about my attitude and stuff in obeying the commands of Scripture. And my motive for correcting should be one of love, for the sheep as well as the perpetrator.
On the other hand, what spirit is leading you such that the ONLY thing you are going to do is pray? If the Bible says we are to take action (I believe “correct”, “reject”, “turn away from”, and “take note” are actions, though I could be wrong) and the ONLY thing you are willing to do is pray, who is being disobedient, you or me? If I am calling attention to the men who teach another gospel and you are keeping silent, who is being disobedient? If I am taking people to the Bible to let them see why what these pimps say is untrue and all you are going to do is sit back and pray, saying nothing, who is being disobedient?
Do you really believe sitting back and saying nothing while preachers spew error is somehow to the glory of God? Would you care to show me this concept in the Bible?
This site is not about fake people. Since I can’t see into people’s hearts, unless they do or say specific things, I can’t judge their sincerity. I can only address the doctrine they publicly preach and defend, and the focus (or lack) of their “ministries”. Fake has nothing to do with it.
You make an interesting comment when you say:
If you want to pray about something, pray about the homosexuals who are in visible positions. The Music Ministry at FBCG and numerous churches are polluted with them. Not to mention, the undercover “DL” preachers and saints. (Note: For those of you who do not know what DL means, it stands for Down Low, men who publicly are heterosexual but secretly engage in homosexual intercourse.)
TYFBM, if you have incontrovertible evidence of one of the leaders is engaging in DL or adulterous behavior, do you think you should bring it to their attention? If not, why did Paul fuss at the Corinthians in 1 Corinthians 5 for not disciplining the man who was living with his step mother? Paul didn’t say “You should be in prayer about the situation.” He told them to act on it and act on it quickly since the leaven would mess up the entire body. For you to sit around and say nothing if you have INCONTROVERTIBLE evidence is to allow the cancer of known sin to fester in your local congregation. What spirit would lead you to do that?
I challenge you to go to Scripture and see what it says about the importance of doctrine and the obligation each of us has to correct those in error. Read your bible. Don’t just sit around with your hands folded.
And by the way, Galatians 6:7 and 8 says “Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, this he will reap. For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit real eternal. ” If you are going to quote it, quote it and use it accurately.
You say we should sit around and keep our mouths shut. I say we should obey the Bible and warn the saints about the pimps. Which of us is sowing to the flesh and which is sowing to the spirit? A hint: In 1 Samuel 15:23 God insists that disobedience is as witchcraft. Galatians 5:18 - 19 points to witchcraft (sorcery) as one of the works of the flesh. Which of us is obeying and which, according to the Bible, is being disobedient? Or to ask it another way, which of us is sitting around saying nothing, and which of us is speaking out against the heresy?
Remember, the pimps depend on you not knowing what the Bible actually says as opposed to what they want to make it say.
Finally, I suggest you do more than skim the contents. You should go back and read it. It might save you a couple of bucks and keep you from pouring several years of your life down the drain.
Well, I do not agree with your response. God is not leading me to argue. Yet I must say the following:
I’ve reviewed your scripture references. Yet none of them adequately justifies your opinion and creation of this website. I do not believe God has ordained YOU to warn others about false doctrine.
Romans 16, 2 Thessalonians, and 2 John 10 tells us (as individuals) to turn from and reject inaccurate doctrine. You have misinterpreted those scriptures!
Now let’s look at 1 Timothy 1:3 in it’s full context: 1″Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the command of God our Savior and of Christ Jesus our hope,
2To TIMOTHY my true son in the faith:
Grace, mercy and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.
3As I urged YOU when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain men not to teach false doctrines any longer 4nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies…..”
In reality, Apostle Paul was addressing Timothy who had been appointed as a pastor. He was instructing an ordained man of God who was in a position to do what Paul said in verse 3. Those instructions do NOT apply to you and just any Christian.
No; The spirit of God has not called or lead YOU to “call attention to the men who teach another gospel”. It’s up to the Christians (inside of today’s churches) to seek the righteousness of God. If they do, God will open their eyes and reveal what He wants them to know. No; I don’t believe God is using YOU to do that.
No; I’m not the one who is being “disobedient”. End of subject.
In a separate reply, I’ll address the comments you found “interesting”.
Max,
How do you decide what applies to “special” people and what applies to you? The Bible says that all scriputre is good for training in righteousness. Is there a kind of righteousness that only the pastor adheres to? The Bible says it is written for our instruction. How do you decide what is written for your instruction and what isn’t? If I follow your logic out, we shouldn’t study to show ourselves approved (2 Tim 2:15) since Paul was writing directly to Timothy, an ordained man of God. Or am I missing something here?
When Jude tells us to contend for the faith once delivered to the saints, is it only certain people who should contend? If it is only certain people, how do you decide who is to contend and who is to sit back and keep silent? How would you reject the doctrine without rejecting the bringer of the bad doctrine?
If a pastor of another church denies the Trinity, should John have that person speak at First Baptist? What would be the difference between that and you giving money to a Jehovah’s Witness when he comes calling on a Saturday morning?
I can’t wait to hear what your view on disciplining homosexuals and adulterers in the church.
Melvin
In your response, Melvin you said: “TYFBM, if you have incontrovertible evidence of one of the leaders is engaging in DL or adulterous behavior, do you think you should bring it to their attention?” This was in reply to my comments about the homosexuals and DLs (inside today’s churches especially the Music Ministry).
The word “inconvertible” can mean “unquestionable” per my Thesaurus. Yet that should not imply one has to actually see a person in the sexual act. That’s not necessary IF one is a real, heterosexual male or Christian female who has discernment. At FBCG, all I had to do was watch S.H.!
God has been faithful in confirming my suspicions about S.H. He allows me to see his actions (with my own eyes). Yet at times, God brings me confirmation about S.H. through others. Let me clarify: He’s not in “leadership”, but he is in a highly visible position (in Music Ministry). Actually, S.H. is only 1 of 3 homosexuals in Music Ministry at FBCG. Yet he has a higher visibility.
I believe it’s “wrong” for pastors to allow such things. Pastor J might preach against homosexuality. Yet to allow them to hold “visible positions within the church” demeans his position and preaching against homosexuality.
The Bible says: “there’s nothing hidden that should not be revealed”. It also says, “your sin will find you out”. (Numbers 32). 1 Peter 4:17 tell us that “judgment must begin at the house of God”. Thus GOD will surely expose and deal with the homosexuals, lesbians, and DL’s (inside the church). Amen.
In part of your pervious response you said, “do you think you should bring it to their attention? …..For you to sit around and say nothing….” This was in response to the homosexuals and DL’s in the church.
In essence, you’re saying that a Christian should boldly approach someone they know is committing sin, right? If so, this statement is only true in certain situations.
The Bible tells us to do “all things decently and order”. It’s not appropriate for me to approach every sinner in the church regardless of their position. Whether or not to approach someone should first depend on: 1)Your relationship with that person 2) God’s will.
If you approach someone you don’t have a “relationship” with that will cause hostility. God’s not in that. If you don’t have a relationship with the sinner, it’s the responsibility of the church leadership to approach and deal with that particular person.
If leadership doesn’t have enough discernment to know what’s going on in someone’s personal life OR if they choose not to speak, then turn the situation over to GOD via prayer.
Even if you have a relationship with the sinner, you should pray and seek God’s will first. It may not be God’s will to approach him/her right now. Or perhaps God may want you to approach him/her in a certain way. Regardless, we should always pray and wait on God’s direction before approaching sinners.
In the case of S.H., I don’t yet have a relationship with him. So I’ve prayed to God about that and getting the opportunity to admonish him. I’m not going to step ahead of God.
I’m not the only one who knows about S.H.’s homosexuality. According to another church member, a male friend had allegedly warned S.H. about his homosexuality. Regardless of his praise and worship, God is not pleased with S.H.’s lifestyle and WILL deal with him soon.
In the interim, my role is to intercede via prayer.
P.S. (I’m a heterosexual FEMALE.)
Dear Melvin, you and I are not on the “same page” concerning scripture and interpretation of scriptures. In order to avoid arguing, I will not address those types of comments from you.
In a previous response, you said “If a pastor of another church denies the Trinity, should John have that person speak at First Baptist?” The following is my reply to that particular comment:
As a FBCG member, I’m not concerned about stuff like that. I always pray for discernment before I go to any church service including bible study. It’s up to other Christians to live their life in a way that causes God to open their eyes.
Regarding the “trinity”, it has been taught in the Bible Institute classes I’ve taken. Thus, I have no reason to believe FBCG doctrine denies the existence of the “Holy Trinity”.
Regarding Pastor Duke: If his sermon (at the men’s conference) did not mention the holy trinity issue, I would not be concerned. Pastor Jenkins should only be concerned when guest ministers say and do things contrary to what we’ve been taught.
What would be my concern about guest ministers at FBCG? I am concerned about that which I have noticed. Some of those guest preachers were homosexuals or DL’s. No; God is not leading me to approach anyone concerning them.
When the pastor or other preachers commit error, GOD will hold them accountable (in due season). In the interim, God will deal with them in the way He wants to deal with them.
You poor dear. I assume if Pastor K invited a Jehovah’s Witness or a Mormon out to speak you wouldn’t care, as long as they didn’t preach any specific Mormon or JW doctrine.
I suspect the pimps will continue to take advantage of you as long as you attend FBCG. Even if you see something that is not right, you will keep silent, keep singing, keep shouting, and keep giving them your money. The leadership is not held accountable in any way. In effect, you give them a free ride. The more of you there are at FBCG the more the leadership will prosper at your expense.
There’s so much more to Christianity than the financial, spiritual, and emotional bondage they have laid on you.
I’ll keep you in my prayers.
Melvin
As usual, Melvin you are wrong. You took my comments out of context.
My statement was NOT implying that I would approve of JW’s, Muslims, etc. speaking at our church. My comment was only relevant to your particular comment about Dukes speaking at our church. End of subject.
For the record, I am not poor and nobody (in/outside of church) will ever take advantage of me. I have a strong mind of my own, and I seek God’s will and wisdom for my own self. Nobody tells me what to do. I move based on my own free will.
Inspite of your opinions, I have no reason to believe I’m being “financially taken advantage of at FBCG”. Churches have expenses to pay. Thus, they must take offerings. So what.
If we’re building a new facility, the money isn’t going to fall down out of the sky. Personally, I have no problem with our “mind to build” campaign. I only wish that I had MORE funds to contribute to it.
I respect the way FBCG collects money. Why? Unlike other churches, they never dictate how much money people give. Even at Showplace Arena, Pastor J never manipulates the congregation to give a certain amount of money. So leave my church alone regarding the financial issues!!!
By no means am I in any type of bondage. Again, I say NO church is perfect. Yet I will remain a member of FBCG until GOD himself leads me to leave. End of subject!
P.S. (If your goal is to draw people away from certain churches or ministries, that’s wrong.)
Changing the subject to a more interesting topic answer the following question:
Regarding the homosexuals/DLs in the church, do you believe it’s the responsibility of the pastor/leadership? Do you believe the leaders should be able to “discern” when an active member has that lifestyle? (yes or no)
Another male Christian (outside of FBCG) argued with my position. (He had reviewed your website and my responses.) R feels pastors or leaders do not have the “same level of discernment”. Thus, they should not be expected to “discern” what’s occurring in a saint’s life.
Although we probably won’t agree, what’s your position? In the interim, the following is MY position:
If GOD has set an “overseer” over a church, he/she should be able to discern who’s really living by the word of God. The Holy Spirit should be operating in his/her life at a level that enables him/her to “see through” the pretenders (especially those in ministry and highly visible positions).
Because of my position just stated, I hold the pastors/leaders accountable for the ungodly sexual behaviors of so-called saints in ministry. If they’re in leadership or doing ministry, they should have “discernment” at a level that recognizes a homosexual, lesbian, substance abuser, etc.
That’s why it should be their responsibility to warn AND discipline their “sexually immoral” and disobedient church members.
Melvin’s Note:
I’m not even going to bother with a separate comment on this one. The comment itself shows pretty much a complete lack of understanding of Scripture and an apparent willingness to engage in incredibly subjective practices of supposed spirituality. When the fellow was living with his step mother in Corinth, there as no mystical discernment. It was out in the open for everyone to see. But even with that, no one was willing to go to the brother and tell his to get his act together.
I was a part of a small church in Florida and the choir director was knocking boots with the lead singer. No one nknew this until the day someone came to his house and she answered the door in a towel, having just taken a shower with him. Once this was known for certain, the church leadership insisted he and she step down. They publicly apologized and repented. There was no psuedo mysitical Haginesque “discernment” involved. Galatians 6:1 and 2 deal with this rather explicitly when it says that you who are spiritual should correct such a one in the spirit of gentleness. It’s not a matter of some bogus “discernemtn’. Of coure, if you could show me this discernment thing you keep talking about (and I hope you don’t point to Elisha), perhaps we can discuss it ffurther.
Sorry Max, but when you say :
As a FBCG member, I’m not concerned about stuff like that. I always pray for discernment before I go to any church service including bible study. It’s up to other Christians to live their life in a way that causes God to open their eyes….
….Regarding Pastor Duke: If his sermon (at the men’s conference) did not mention the holy trinity issue, I would not be concerned. Pastor Jenkins should only be concerned when guest ministers say and do things contrary to what we’ve been taught.
If you are not concerened about “stuff like that” then why would you object to a known JW or a Muslim preaching there as long as they didn’t address those things that differentiate Christianity and JW or Islam? After all, if Imam Akmed Zarqawi spoke and didn’t mention anything that contradicted John, wouldn’t that be okay? If not, what would be the basis of your objections? Or if Louis Farrakhan spoke at the Men’s Conference and didn’t say anything at the conference to contradict what John teaches, what would be your objection?
You just said you wouldn’t have a problem with someone who doesn’t accept the doctrine of the Trinity speaking as long as they don’t deny the Trinity there. What would be your objection if a JW spoke there as long as he or she didn’t deny the Trinity while they are there?
I’m not taking you out of context, I’m simply taking what you say to it’s obvious and unavoidable conclusion.
Incidentally, no one said you are poor. But you are being taken advantage of. Your desire to please God, and your relatvie ignorance of scripture is being used by your leadership to get as much money out of you as possible and to build as big a memorial to John as possible. Your refusal to accept this doesn’t make it any less true.
Melvin
Again, you misinterpreted my comments. So let’s end this particular subject about who speaks at anybody’s church. If something is out of order, GOD has the power to straighten it out (without YOUR help). You are not anointed nor appointed to do what Apostle Paul did!!
On my part, there is no “lack of understanding of scripture”. We’re just not on the same wave length. It’s only an ungodly spirit that would choose to criticize everyone who disagrees with you or contradicts your position.
By the way, did you start your own church after leaving FBCG? Sorry, I can’t visualize you as a part of anyone’s church. Why? No church is perfect. Yet you obviously have a “spirit” that wants to criticize and broadcast everything YOU don’t agree with. That’s not the spirit of Christ!
So again, what’s the name of your church? Better yet: Who ordained you as a “pastor”?
Max, I hereby and officially pronounce you banned from making comments to this particular posting from this point on. You keep saying the same silly things over and over again. You don’t appear to even try to address the issues. You keep mumbling something about being on different wavelengths. Rather than waste people’s time trying to follow your non-arguments, you are banned. If you wish to make comments to other postings, and I find them of sufficient interest to approve, I will. Otherwise, find someplace else to natter on about who knows what.
Or as the soup Nazi might put it: No more posts for you!
At least not on this specific posting.
By the way, you have heard about John Jenkins, right? He is in the hospital. You might want to call the office to find out how he’s doing.
Melvin Jones