Facilitators???

You noticed!!! Very good. The diaprax at its ugliest.

Melvin

It’s a shame because Doug Smith should know better. I have talked to him about the importance of the Trinity many times, and discussed how it is not up for compromise.

Oh well…hey at least he made it onto a flyer with his pastor.

Also, let me add that My personal experience with Bible way is they do not recognize anyone being baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost as being saved. They agressively teach that you must be baptized in Jesus’ name only to be saved, anything else is heresy.

So, they can bet that Dukes is looking at this preaching opportunity as a missionary event hoping that all the poor trinitarians come to their senses and stop worshipping a “three headed monster” and become Oneness.

Also, they agressively teach that you MUST be baptized to be saved and you MUST speak in tongues. My experience years ago, I went to the front of the church to assist in praying for the “new believers” only to get sucked into the system. A gentleman began to tell me to say “thank you Jesus” real fast. He was suggesting that this would primer the pump and I would breakout speaking in tongues. This was my first interaction with oneness and I could not believe it.

I was brief here, but I have shared this story in detail with Doug Smith, and warned him of Bible Way and Oneness.

I tried to explain to JKJ many years ago the trouble of attempting to merge Baptist doctrine and Charismatic Pentecostalism. the charismatic will by its nature overshadow everything else. These so called Christians are compromising the doctrine of the Trinity, just to get a good show, forget content.

My theory is proving true. Look how integrated the oneness are becoming over at JKJ’s church. Pretty soon they will be running around finishing every sentence with “IN JESUS’ NAME!” (oneness like to emphasize this when they’re on mission trips to convert ignorant trinitarians)

I understand your frustration Damagoh. Have you considered giving him a call and seeing what he has to say?

To use one of their phrases, maybe he doesn’t know this clown is oneness. Or worst, maybe he doesn’t care.

But either way, I think you should ask him just to make him verbalize his decision to sell out.

I decided to give Deacon Lee a phone call. In fact, I’m talking to him right now.

Even as I am talking to him, he is trying to tell me why he doesn’t mind Dukes being there.

He said there are a lot of people he is uncomfortable with for various reasons. But he doesn’t feel he has a role to play in deciding what other people think and do.

He is going to attend the conference and he is not going to say anything to anyone about the fellow being Oneness. He is going to keep silent. Thus the reason for this site.

I have to say I was disappointed on his combination of answers and non-anwers. It’s good, though, to see that he has been so consistent over the last two years.

He seems to think that because he is not an elder, he has absolutely no reason to speak up if he sees something wrong. And this is the same guy who says “I Believe all of the Bible!” I guess he belives all of it except Rom 16; 2 thess 3; 2 Tim; Titus 1, and several others.

Go figure.

Melvin

I have no contact info for smith. Besides, it doesn’t matter…

I really do not think that everything that you stated was neccessary because who are you to judge someone’s walk with Christ? “Matthew 7:2 - For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again” . So you have no right to exploit what’s going on in various churches, and exploit various pastors including mine.

Krystal,

If you’re going to use Scripture (I’m glad to see that you are at least trying), at least use it correctly.

But before I address that issue, let me make it clear that I don’t understand what you mean by what I said not being necessary. If I am to be obedient to Scripture, I suggest it is necessary. Part of the trouble NOW is no one has been willing, or able to find the mechanics to say what I’m saying to as many people as I am saying it. Also, no one has said some of these things about specific people.

Who am I to judge? If by ‘judge’ you mean condemn and consider myself oh so much better than these people, I certainly have no authority to do that. Afterall, we have all sinned and fallen short of the golory of God (Romans 3:23). So far be it from me to even pretend to be better or smarter or anything like that than others.

Strictly speaking, I’m not questioning another’s walk with Christ. To do that I would have to try to figure out what they are thinking and what their motives are. Obviously, I can’t do that. But that same Jesus you just quoted all said that we are to:

“judge with righteous judgment” (John 7:24.

Now in that same Bible, Jesus also talks about raveonous wolves just after the section you quoted. He says in Matthew 7:15 - 20:

Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither [can] a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them

People who preach bad doctrine are called ravenous wolves and false prophets. So if we hear someone preaching a false doctrine (Oneness vs Trinity, Jesus suffering in hell, etc), we can see they are false prophets and ravenous wolves. This isn’t questioning someone’s walk with Christ, it’s questioning what they say, in obedience to what the Bible says.

But it also goes on to say that we should draw attention to those who preach bad doctrine. Take a look at:

Romans 16, 17, 18
2 Thess 3:14
2 Tim 2:24, 25
2 John 9, 10

So again, it’s not a matter of condemning. It’s a matter of being obedient.

As to the last part, how, exactly am I exploiting anything. Exposing perhaps, but how am I exploiting? I have told the truth about what John Jenkins, Lyle Dukes (who is oneness) and the rest of the pimps (you may prefer ‘wolves instead) have said and what they say they believe.

Doesn’t the Bible say we are supposed to do this?

Melvin Jones

Well, the event happened and I guess a bunch of people attended. I talked to my paranoid friend this morning and he said all the things the excusers usually say:

- I didn’t hear anything about Oneness when Dukes was there
- Maybe Pastor doesn’t know Duke is Oneness
- I don’t believe Pastor Jenkins is trying to move us toward Oneness (Not that I ever said he ws thinking about it).
- etc. etc.

I think he got upset when, after he suggested that John didn’t know Dukes was Oneness, I said John is not that stupid. Either he had to hang up quickly, or he hung up on me. I called back and left him a voice-mail telling him to lighten up. He may talk to me again. He may not. Remember what I said earlier: people who stay in such a place general deserve exactly what they get.

Melvin

I called ny paranoid friend back. He hung up as soon as he heard my voice.

Yeah well.

Now…I do know Doug and Billy and I’ve watched their work with the youths of the church, and to say the least, they both are doing a fantastic job, Billy with the teenagers–who deeply respect him, and Doug with the male mentoring - what a great concept and it is certainly a lot of young men who attend and look forward to attending this ministry…one thing about First Baptist is that it does have a strong mens ministry and everyone will not make negative comments when asked about the oneness and so forth…but, I don’t believe that the finger needs to be pointed at Pastor Jenkins…he has people in place to do this type of research on the guest speakers…soooooo…let’s look a bit further…Phyllis

Phyllis,

I know both Doug and Billy as well. Unfortunately the issue is not whether they are fine upstanding young men. The issue is that they stood by while a man who denies the Trinity (an essential of the faith) came in a was honored by the church. In terms of mentoring, leadership, and example, what does this say to the youth?

If I understand Scripture correctly, it says the leaders should be men who will protect the truth, not run away from conflict. They must be will to contend, be willing to stand as Jenkins likes to say.

I also don’t think it’s a valid supposition to say that Jenkins’s research people failed him. He had Charles Ellis speak about two years ago. I know he knew Ellis was Onenessm because I brought it to his attention personally. His only response was to say that I didn’t speak to him with proper respect. I may be able to dig out the e-mail exchange if you want to take a look at it. Since you want to look a bit further…

Melvin

Melvin…I am not sure exactly WHAT is going on here…but, it appears that you are bitter and judgmental….while you may have some very valid points…I don’t doubt that…but isn’t vengence the Lords–not ours…what happened in the past—I don’t know…but a lot of this seems to be a personal attack—hey, this is just my “opinion”

May GOD continue to BLESS YOU!

So let me make sure I understand what you are saying.

I clearly (and I hope objectively) present an issue. The issue here is that John Jenkins invited a man who denies one of the essentials of the faith (the doctrine of the trinitarian nature of God) to speak and preach to the congregation.

I clearly demonstrate that the person in question (Dukes) is tightly associated with an organization that denies the Trinity.

I provide what I would like to think are references applicable from Scripture to let the readers see what our reaction SHOULD be to those who deny the truth of the Gospel.

I don’t refer to John’s personal life, his personality, the way he dresses, his style of preaching or anything else. I deal only with the issue and John’s response to the issue at hand. After all, I can’t see into the man’s heart. I can only deal with what is.

Having done all of this, and providing you with enough information for you to judge for yourself, I am guilty of making a personal attack and being bitter. Does that pretty well sum up what you’re saying?

My point here is that it is always easier to dismiss what someone is saying with an subjective accusation (in this case saying that I am bitter - a persoanl attack if ever there was one) than it is to look at the facts. . But even here, I can’t say that you are refusing to look at the facts. I can only say that your response is not consistent with the response of a person who has looked at the facts and is trying to address the facts. And the reason I say that is because none of your previous discussion has dealt with the facts. Those facts being:

1. John invited a man who denies the Trinity to speak at the church
2. Unless the fellow did the speaking for free, FBCG paid the man to speak at the church.
3. John has had at least two other men who deny the Trinity to speak at the church. One was charles Ellis.
4. The Bible says we should turn away from those who deny the truth of the Gospel (start with Romans 16:17, 18 and go from theer).
5. John has embraced these people rather than turning away from them.

Now, exactly where in this series of events and observations is a personal attack or an expression of bitterness? You may not LIKE what I’m saying. And the statements may be hard. But that is not the same as a personal attack. It is certainly a specific one, but Paul did the same thing in the letters to the various churches.

Finally, if I’m just being bitter (which is surely a sin according to Eph 4:31, Acts 8:23 and Rom 3:14 to name just three references), why would you want God to continue blessing me? Shouldn’t you be asking Him to discipline me so I can come to my senses and repent?

Melvin

Well..Melvin, then if I should be asking GOD to discipline you…then why are you not following suit with Pastor Jenkins…you seem to be “handling” GODS judgement…Yes, I want him to continue to Bless You always…as I am not the judge of what you say or do…we can always agree not to agree…I see a part of your picture, and just wanted to know what the deal is or was…and to me…it does in fact appear that there is discernment, disagreement, bitterness, or whatever works for you!

Phyllis,

I do pray that God would bring him to his senses. Consider this: if what I am saying is true, John will have a great deal to answer for when he faces the Bema seat, the judgment seat of Christ. If I didn’t care about him, I would simply leave him alone and drop silently into the back ground. But would that be the loving thing to do? I should think not.

I am not dsicplining John. I am warning others away from him nd other preachers who deal in heresy and untruth, whenever possible. But that’s what the Bible says we are supposed to do (Romans 16:17, 18; 2 Thes 3:14 and others.). In the scheme of things - this site is a pimple on Goliath’s left toe. Hardly worth noticing.

I pray for John (when I’m not too lazy to pray as I should everyday). What do I pray? That he would be filled with the knowledge of His will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding, that he would walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, to please Him in all resects, bearing fruit and every good work and increasing in the knowledge of GOd, that he would be strengthened with all power, according to His glorious might, for the attaining of all steadfastness. That would be much better than the self gratifying and misleading stuff he currently deals in.

This isn’t simply a generic “bless him”. It’s very specific and certainly within the will of God. Whether or not John turns in that direction is between him and God.

And Phyllis, you certainly are the judge of what I say. That is part and parcel of what this entire site is about. Too often the Christian says “who am I to judge?” because they think dicerning and evaluation is the same as condemnation. But Jesus tell us to judge. Paul tells us to judge. Peter tells us to judge - how else could we contend for the faith if we don’t judge? How would we know who to take note of (Romans 16:17, 18) if we don’t make a judgment? How do we hold each other accountable if we don’t make judgments. Take a look at the article on Hypocrisy under Christian Living and let me know what you think.

Can I say with any great degree of certainty that John Jenkins is not saved? No. Can I say with any degree of certainty that some of the things he teaches are wrong and heretical? Yes!!! And we arre commanded to do exactly that.

While it is certainly not your job to make me shut the site down, it is your “job” to speak out against the error you may see here. If nothing else, if you love me as a fellow Christian, you should warn me - from the whole counsel of God, that I should not say the things I say, that I should not point out the error that I point out.

I suggest though, that once you look at the whole counsel, you will discover that you have to speak out against the very things I am speaking out against. Probably not in the same in-your-face way, but speaking out none the less. You will begin to understnad how much damage is done by those who would sit silently by or, if they leave, do so without telling anyone and simply disappearing into the mist.

You were doing so well. Do not now fall into the usual approach of “who am I to judge?” You are, according to John 1:12, a child of God. You have been transferred from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of His beloved Son (Col 1:13). You, as a christian, have been given the Holy Spirit who guides you into the truth (as you trust His word).

You are to judge. You have to judge.

Melvin

Good job. I appreciate the way you do your homework. Keep up the good work. It is not being judgemental if it is the truth according to the word of God in its complete context.

Brother Melvin…please don’t misunderstand my comment about who am I to judge…as a child of GOD as we both are, for me to judge your perceptions and beliefs is not Godly…so, please don’t believe that I am judging…I really don’t care about all of the “what christians should do” type things…all I am merely saying is this — While I don’t agree or disagree with you or this website, I just wanted to get to the root of your “issues”…and afterwards, I will then speak out about it…I too am a person who will call the truth as it is…so lets not get off on the wrong foot…I just want to know what happened to your initial relationship with Pastor and FBCG???

Phyllis, unless you are a vegetable, you have to agree or disagree with what I am saying. Perhaps you mean you don’t care one way or another. But surely you have some thought as to wether what I am saying is accurate or not accurate.

Judging my beliefs is most definitely Godly, and required. Romans 16:17 and 18, 2 Thessalonians, 2 Timothy, Galatians and a host of other verses say we are supposed to do exactly that. How else would we be able to mark those with bad teachings if we did not judge their beliefs?

You get your own posting. Take a look at “C’mon Phyllis!”

Melvin

By the way Phyllis,

The relationship with John was never “buddy-buddy.” I had relatively minor problems with him when I first arrived. They simply grew worse as time went on.

My leaving was a culmination of a slowly accelerating spiraling in that started the day he took over as boss shepherd.

Intrestingly, we disagreed on things from the day I first showed up. I told him, during the “interview” that I did not accept tithing as a requirement on the Christian. I guess he thought I had just pulled the position our of my…armpit, because he then challenged me to search the scriptures about it. I came back with an 11 page essay supporting my position. He didn’t even bother to read it. Apparently he never was accustom to having people challenge his position on anything.

Go figure.

ARRG!! tithing not a requirement!!! How can you budget out a Multimillion dollar Pimp house on faith!! you know the pimps favorite saying…” the witch betta have my money!!” (PG13)

Melvin…your by the way comment sheds more light on what I was asking in the first place…thanks for the posting (I was quite surprised when I got back to the site and saw that wow)…again…I say, less is better so although you get straight to the point with your beliefs — c’mon Melvin — an ll page document good gracious…ummmmm…I guess I would not have read it either…just my thoughts…Phyllis

And Phyllis,

That is why the pimps will tell you whatever lie they want to and you will continue to believe them. You, apparently, are not willing to study to show yourself approved, rightly dividing the word of God. And that is the way people like Joel Osteen (another Word Faither) can build a 16ooo seat coluseum - er…church building and fill it every Sunday. The people who listen to him haven’t a clue or don’t want a clue.

Here’s a challenge for Phyllis:

For the next four weeks, take detailed notes during a sermon. Try to develop an outline of what he presents. Note the following: 1. The topic, 2. The verses used, 3. Wheter or not the verses were used in context, 4. The application of the verses he used, 5. The changes you have to make or should maintain in your life as a result of the sermon.

Having attended there for the better part of seven years, I think you will have some trouble coming up with much past “You people shouldn’t be sleeping with folks you’re not married to,” or “You need Jesus Christ.”

If you don’t get much more than that, you might want to think about finding a new “Man of God,” one who will actually study the word and expound it in a meaningful manner.

If I continue to listen to this gibberish I couldnt help but come away doubting everything about GOD….I will continue to pray for you all…..peace.

The fact that you think the things being said are gibberish seems more a reflection on you and where you may be in terms of Spiritual maturity. Why would you doubt things about God. Most of what the pimps deal with has nothing to do with God. What part of the presentation do you disagree with? And what within the Bible indicates what I have said is not true?

It’s easy enough to disount what someone says. Anyone, saved or unsaved can do that and feel justified in their own eyes. But you have not demonstrated from Scripture that I am either misusing scripture or making things up.

Melvin

I dont know what the onness theory is. I attend FBCG and I will admit I do have problems with the church on some things. I dont think our focus is where it needs to be, however did you know that the bible never mentions the word trinity. It is one of the most controversial points in Christianity today. I would like to know your thoughts on this.

There are at least two view of God within what I will call the Christian community.

The Trinitarian view says there are three distinct persons within a single Godhead, each individual yet equal, united in purpose and will. Each is fully God, inseperable from the others, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

The second view says there is only God and His roles (of the way He appears to us) are that of Father in Creation, the Son in salvation, and the Holy Spirit in sanctification.

In general, many of the oneness groups will say that God’s name is Jesus, his roles are Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

And you are correct - the word trinity does not appear anywhere in the Old or New testament. However, ignoring the words we may use to name a concept, which of the concepts is consistent with what the Bible says?