Proverbs: 3:5 Trust in the Lord with all thine heart and lean not unto thine own understanding, in all thy ways acknowledge Him and He shall direct thy paths.
True women of God:
Are committed to discovering and becoming all that God had in mind for them, and readily accept all that He requires of them through His Word.
1 Timothy 5:14 - I will therefore that the younger women marry, bear children, guide the house, and give none occasion to the adversary to speak reproachfull.
Proverbs: 31:11 - The heart of her husband doth safely trust in her, so that he shall have no need of spoil. She will do him good and not evil all the days of his life.
Titus 2:3-5 - The aged women likewise that they be in behavior as becometh holiness. Not false accusers, not given to much wine, “teachers of good things that they may teach the (younger women) to be sober to love their husband, to love their children to be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands that the Word of God be not blasphemed.”
True women of God:
Seek those things that God wills for them to do, and persue those things with a passion born out of love for Him, and offer them from a heart of true submission to His Word.
“Man only recognize what God had already established.”
SO we should ignore what God had ESTABLISHED?” Or should we ADD to his word? I am sorry but I normally follow what is established and not “buck the system”
No, we do not agre with that concept. AlmightyGod can do anything but fail. He called and sent women to preach and do His work, If women and men don’t preach how will you get the word of God.
Other than those women who were with their husbands, show me an instance where God called a women to LEAD(Pastor) a flock. We must set a precedent here.
He used Deborah as a Judge over Israel. That was a head position.
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Comment by GaryV
2007-04-23 19:23:50
Deborah is listed as the lone woman judge among thirteen listed men. As has been discussed previously, if there IS no man to take the reigns a woman can and should rather than leave the Gospel unproclaimed. The sheer numbers here (13 to 1) tell us that Deborah is just such an exception………
If God had women in mind as part of His plan in the leading of the flock, we would have seen women Levite priests serving in the Temple. Women High Priests. Women pastors in the New Testament.
But it is an exception, not God’s prescribed plan. Women CAN teach, and the Bible tells us that they SHOULD teach outside the context of spiritual authority. They SHOULD spread the Gospel to the lost. They SHOULD display the fruit of the Spirit. They SHOULD exercise their God given gifts.
It’s not a LESSER position that women are relegated to, simply a DIFFERENT position. Is Christ LESSER than the Father because He has SUBJECTED Himself to the Father’s order?? Certainly not.
The church would be at a standstill without the ministry of women. But that ministry must be subject to the order ordained by God, just as Christ’s ministry is subject to the order ordained by God.
The only reason women are offended by their ordained position is because we carry the authority structure mentality we learned from the world into the church. In the world, the CEO is the one we aspire to be. The man or woman in charge, calling the shots, wielding authority and power and demanding respect.
We carry this Godless notion into the Body and superimpose the CEO concept over the office of pastor/elder. Women get offended because they feel blocked unfairly from the prestige, power, authority, and respect of being the Top Dog.
Yet, according to Christ and Paul and every other inspired writer, the position of elder/pastor is not a position of authority and power but of servanthood and meekness.
But concerning Deborah, it is not said that God raised her up as a Judge. What is said regarding her is that she “judged Israel at that time”.
Judges 4:4 - And Deb’-o-rah, a prophetess, the wife of Lap’-i-doth, “she judged Israel at that time.
At what time did Deborah judge Israel?
Answer: At a time when “every man did that which was right in his own eyes.
Judges 17:6 - In those days there was no king in Israel, but every man did that which was right in his own eyes.
Judges 21:25 - In those days there was no king in Israel: every man did that which was right in his own eyes.
Remember: It is Barak in Hebrews 11:32 - 33 that God accounted to have been the vessel of faith, not Deborah.
In the love of Jesus Christ,
Deb
Comment by Gridiron
2007-04-24 08:29:30
Amen, also there are differences with regard to the office of the priesthood, and socio-political governments (one appointed as a judge).
The two are not intertwined. In the OT, there are (approx) over 700 accounts of a priest…and not one was female. There is a difference between the offices indeed.
lol… the bible never said “If women and men don’t preach how will you get the word of God”.. Instead the scriptures gives the protocol and qualifiations of an Elder and decon. Now if a woman can be the husband of one wife, then that would make God an endorser of homosexuality. Rather, if you read closely the church gathering is an extention of the immediate family. The head of the house should be the head at church. For how can a man be the head at home and fall to the tail at church behind his wife? But i’m sure this is not going to register.
TOG….this is exactly the image I have a hard time wrestling with. On one hand I say, when Paul was repremanding the church at Corinth….this was because there was no order, in which this needed to be established.
Women exercising their gifts out of place in the name of worship.
The other side…which appears more prevalent is the fact that God has ordained the man to be head of his own house.
Then how in fact is he to relegate to his wife in public worship when she is instructed to submit unto his leadership in the home?
Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord.
I know of someone (whom I have not spoken to in a while) whom sits underneath a female pastor.
Now, I really wonder (because this Pastor is a newlywed) how this falls in order because she is the lead of this congregation in which her husband is an Elder……and designated the head by God according to scripture.
Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
This subject causes much division because on one hand, it obviously doesn’t “ruffle” feathers by making such an un-liberalistic statement of a woman not being called to lead her congregants, let alone her husband.
I have come into contact with statements concerning why Paul demanded this order, and many appear to shy away with regard to the appearance of a sexist.
Question an issue such as this, and more often than not people will throw one to the wolves.
In the order that God created, ordained, and established with regard to worship as well….how can it be that the leadership of the wife be authoritative of her husband in God’s church when man is designated the head of the wife in EVERYTHING according to scripture?
God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
While not one to scorn an individual in this predicament, the truth will do just that. I pray for those whom really desire to know the truth concerning order.
Not being above reproach, this agenda appears clearly addressed according to the Word.
God is no respecter of persons. People really need to have an understanding of the true Word of God before they claim to agree with it. If the Word of God can proceed out of the mouth of a jack ass then why not a woman or any other creature for that matter. When will we stop trying to pick apart the people delivering the Word of God and just take the Word of God for the truth that it is?
(MN: Granted that many of the subjects of this site are jackasses, but would you attend a church that has a donkey as a pastor? Do you think any donkeys served as priests in the tabernacle? Besides, you really should remember that God was showing a great deal of mercy to Baal, a false prophet) by having the donkey warn him.)
We simply “can not” pick and choose the parts of scripture that we want to live by, then cast out the rest.
It is the Lord himself who commanded in 1 Cor 14:34-35 Let your women keep silent in the churches: for it is “not” permitted unto them to them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. (35) And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a “shame” for women to speak in the church.
What is there in 1 Cor 14:34-35 that is difficult to understand?
I ask you woman: What? came the Word of God out from you? or came it unto you? 1Cor 14:36
Yes, of course it is a blessing to see women desiring to serve the Lord but only “if” it is within accordance too the manner prescribed in the Bible.
God seeks faithfulness and obedience. And He “never” rescinded or modified his command in 1 Tim 2:11-15 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. (12) But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. (13) For Adam was first formed, then Eve. (14) And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. (15) Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
Leslie, no one is saying that a man can’t LEARN from women. I certainly have, and do.I praise God for the Godly women I’ve been blessed to know, many much more seasoned in the Word than I.
HOWEVER……….that is an entirely separate issue from church leadership in the pastoral office. The Bible is quite clear on that issue, and the Word restricts that office to men.
That is not a denigration of women at all, any more than it denigrates Jesus to put Himself in submission to the Father. God is a God of order………and He picks the order, both in the home and in the church.
Again, I want to be clear………..any man who claims he cannot LEARN from a Godly woman is foolish.
Any man (or woman) who sits under a woman pastor is more foolish still, since they violate the clear teaching of Scripture.
TO GARYV: “Any man (or woman) who sits under a woman pastor is more foolish still, since they violate the clear teaching of Scripture.” AMEN!
AMEN ! Speaking as a woman of God, when I was first born again, it must have been my recreated spirit that prohibited me from ever “sitting under a woman ‘pastor, elder, deaconess, prophetess, apostle, evangelist, or teacher’.” My gut told me it was out of order! This does NOT mean that I’ve never learned anything from another sister in the Lord, but I’ve since found that God’s order is the ONLY order. The women of God of the Scriptures(beginning with Eve), as well as some professed “sisters” on the World Wide Web, are clear and present examples of such blatant error!!!!!! The females in these ill-appointed offices need to sit under men of God WHO SPEAK THE ORACLES OF GOD without mixture.
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Comment by Anonymous
2006-12-01 21:27:48
Amen!!
Comment by truthofgod
2006-12-02 08:59:13
Beryle, I commend you that as a woman that you would admit to that. Its sad to see how much of an influence the feminist movement have had on the church and society at large.
Church leadership is supposed to be a reflection of home leadership. God ordained the man to be the head - period. Feminism is one of the causes of women mistakenly believing that because they can now bring home the bacon, fry it up in a pan, and do just about everything else a man can- that that also transfers over to spiritual things and God’s order for His Church.
How is it that some women claim to be under their husband’s authority in their home but as soon as the venue changes from their house to a building w/ crosses hanging in them - she now becomes the spiritual authority over her husband and other men. it doesn’t make sense.
blessings&peace 2u
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Comment by truthofgod
2006-12-02 09:03:52
Thank you! mrs Maverick. I always make that exact point when discussing this topic. How is it that the man is the head at home, but fall back to the tail in church. It doesnt make sense what so ever.
Comment by Jericho Member
2006-12-06 14:30:57
That is foolishness, I ‘ve been going to Jericho since 1988 and, um Apostle Betty P. Peebles, DD packs us with word everytime we come in contact with her, so the LIES you tell.
(MN: Here’s a clue - If she teaches that women should be pastors, she’s not teaching you the truth. If you believe women should be pastors, then you have been badly taught.
By the way, when she preaches and writes, does it hold the same authority as Scripture? )
Comment by GaryV
2006-12-06 16:26:59
Well…..she packs you full of SOMETHING …
Comment by truthofgod
2006-12-06 18:45:34
Jericho member,
I would like to know where in scripture that God gives authority to women pastors or apostles. To my sad regret, its appearent that people just go with anything thats happening and popular. As soon as you question anything that condradicts scripture, you are labeled a zelot, radical, crazy, etc…. You would think with all of the testifying, rolling on the floor, weaves falling out, rabies dribbling out of your mouth - that people would have an understanding of basic truth. But i suppose basic truth or “milk” isn’t basic anymore.
After shaping my iron against iron, I must agree with Melvin that the oneness movement is a clear sign that whom ever
Ascribes to it is a heretic. and cannot be save.What oneness does is call God the father a liar, Jesus clearly states that his testimony of himself means nothing, it is the testimony of the father and the works given to him to finsh that validate Jesus the Christ. John 5, read the Chapter. Do you believe that Jesus only believers are saved?
Leslie, God’s prefect order will not allow for a woman to lead his Church, the word clearly states in 1Cor 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman [is] the man; and the head of Christ [is] God. See also 1Cor 11:7. Acts 10:34 must be read in its entirety, it has nothing to do with leadership, it has to do with salvation. A woman that leads a congregation is just as rebellious as a man that refuses to lead.
Have you given your interpretation of this scripture to the Holy Spirit. The Bible clearly says “man will fail”. The only good one is God and that we come to thou..it changed to him and he from thy and thou you know..through the Lord, Jesus Christ…if there is no man…am I a lost soul…would God allow his own to be totally subjected and led by the flesh who can not save our souls? There is a power greater than “man” the power of the holy spirit which is not a she or he and is not limited to him or her. God has no chosen person and thou divine order is just that divine to do as thou pleases. How can man be a woman’s head when sometimes he doesn’t even know where he left his socks. I invite you to pray and fast on these scriptures and allow the holy spirit for interpretation…for prophesy is in part…and the only whole is God.
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Comment by GaryV
2007-08-08 12:44:38
Michelle, is this some kind of tongues?? Seriously, I can’t understand a word of it, so I have no idea what you’re talking about. If you are referring to any specific verses of the Bible, please reference them to support your view.
I’ve been chuckling at that repeated reference as well.
We who take the Word as it is written are accused of degrading women………….yet when attempting to defend the unScriptural practice of ordaining women, the common response is “Well, if God can speak through an ass, surely He could speak through a woman!!”
In other words, they use a talking ass (who actually never spoke………an angel did) as a justification for woman pastors. And they claim WE are the ones degrading women!!! LOL
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Comment by Beryle
2006-12-03 06:44:25
No you di’ent! :-) It’ll get a chuckle every time!
And to whom was Jesus speaking at this point? Those MEN whom HE has chosen. Now those MEN were to start what we call the church becuse we all know that those 12 (excluding Judas) could not reach everyone in the world so as the church grew and others were ordained to keep the work going(read the epistles). The greek word for “preach” in this instance is “euaggelizo” whic mean ” to announce good news (”evangelize”) especially the gospel:–declare, bring good tidings, preach (the gospel). Now every creature is capable of doing that but when it comes to pastoring a church or leading, go back to the beginning and see how God ordained that and also read, or ‘Study” the epistles for yourself.
Our church has some women teachers in sunday school.
We also have a woman minister but I have never heard her preach.
As far as I know she holds no other leadership postions in the church.
We have a daycare where women teach but I’m not sure of the curriculum.
Our pastor did allow a woman to preach at our annual womens day,
I was a little leary about it but I didn’t understand what I do now.
I might have to talk about this with him one day.
All in all……
I definitely agree that women should not be pastors.
Question: What about open forums where women speak?
It’s sad that people are confused about the gender- of who should preach the word or not. When people are dieing by the millions and your concern is this. Just think how many of those people died without God in their lives, because of the lack of women. Our men are in prison playing with each others manhood…
“Our men are in prison playing with each others manhood… ”
Who is the “OUR” you are referring? Is it the church or a race of people? I know how that comment is used in the african american society but is this to imply african americans only?
Also, do you believe God is Sovergn? Let’s look at this statement for a second.
” Just think how many of those people died without God in their lives”
Do you think God would allow people to die without hearing his word ONCE in their lives? If not, then everyone did not get a chance to accept him before they died. Would that be a just God? Now these people could look at God and say, “no one ever told me about you, so I did not have a chance.” Do you think God would allow that excuse?
Thirdly:
“It’s sad that people are confused about the gender- of who should preach the word or not.”
No, I think God put the qualifications in His Word but because of human agenda, we want to make it fit to OUR standards therefore we will not study His word or ignore what God had placed in HIS word. Let’s look at anything that was made and we would see that it came with a manual. What if we deviated from that manual, what would we have? Look at any established business or organization, it has rules and regulations or bylaws, standards and procedures etc. What if employees started adding what they thought it should be like or what they would like it to be and did it their way. How functional would that business be? Just food for thought.
God, qualify women and men, send and call, anoint and appoints to carry out his will. Our beliefs has nothing to do with whether it’s should or shouldn’t be. Not all listen to the a man and not all listen to women. God will use whom ever will do His will.
Don’t allow the lack of knowledge to destroy you while you focused on simplicity. May God enlighten you all.
My dear, brave Anonymous. Please provide ONE instance in Scripture where God appointed a woman to pastor a congregetion. No one said women can’t preach the Gospel………….women have always preached the Gospel. But Scripture allows no concession for women PASTORS, or for them to have spiritual AUTHORITY over men.
You may not like it, but unless you can refute it from Scripture rather than your hormonally-induced preference, you have no grounds for your position.
On the New Birth Missionary Baptist Church website there is a biography of their First Lady, Elder Vanessa Griffin Long.
Here is an excerpt from the article:
In October 2004, Mrs. Long was elevated to a new level: Bishop Long declared her as a New Birth Elder, pronouncing blessings upon her anointed ministry of healing. Now, Elder Vanessa Long celebrates this new order from God and continues to work within the realm of the places He assigns her. As host of the annual Heart to Heart women’s conference, she ministers to women from around the globe with a renewed mantle of love, hope and healing.
Mr. Eddie Long has ignored scripture by appointing his wife an Elder, proving that he does not hold to “sound” biblical doctrine.
According the Titus:
Titus 1:5 - For this cause left I thee in Crete that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting and ordain ELDERS in every city, as I appointed thee.
Titus 1:6 - If any be blameless, the HUSBAND of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.
There are no women Elders/Bishops according to the Holy Word of God. Whose report will people believe? Eddie Long or Almight God and Savior Jesus Christ.
Hi Sister: Amen! In the mouth of two or three witnesses let every Word be established: 1 Timothy 3:3 says, “…not addicted to wine or pugnacious, but gentle, uncontentious, FREE FROM THE LOVE OF MONEY.” 1 Timothy 3:5 says, “…(but if a man does not know how to manage his OWN HOUSEhold, how will he take care of the church of God?).” The word “house” here bears a yet deeper meaning. [Perhaps the IRS can add relevance here along with their booklet explaining the pros/cons of including family members on your payroll.] 1 Timothy 3:7 says, “And he must have a good reputation with those OUTSIDE the church, so that he may not fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.” Titus 1:7 says, “For the overseer must be above reproach as God’s steward, not self-willed, not quick-tempered [includes swearing in the hearing & cursing AT the congregation of the Saints], not addicted to wine, not pugnacious [there’s that word again], NOT FOND OF SORDID GAIN,…” Titus 1:11 says, “who must be silenced because they are upsetting whole families, teaching things they should not teach [’fresh sperm’, among other atrocities ?], FOR THE SAKE OF SORDID GAIN. 1 Peter 5:2 says, “…shepherd the flock of God among you, exercising oversight not under compulsion, but voluntarily, according to the will of God [confirming Titus]; and NOT FOR SORDID GAIN, but with eagerness; nor yet as lording it over those allotted to your charge, but proving to be examples to the flock.
“And do not participate in the UNFRUITFUL deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them; for it is disgraceful even to speak of the things which are done BY THEM in secret (Ephesians 5:11-12).
May the one, true, living, Everlasting God continue to exalt Himself! Beryle
correction, women “may not” teach. Can not is a question of ability, may not denies the right or authority from the King who sits on the throne governing the church and the world. God did not give women the authority to teach/preach in his church. He gave them the ability to teach, but in the home. In 1 Tim.2 when speaking on the conduct of women in the church Paul appealed to the creation order in his explaination for this instruction. I was raised in the COGIC church, they deny in practice and in their non-doctrinal teaching so many of the systematic doctrinal teachings in Gods word that it’s beyond reason. Some of the most backwoods thinkers in the brotherhood. If Bishop Mason didn’t say it they won’t believe it. A bunch of goofballs.
Interesting….I recently came out of a female dominated, toxic church, Integrity Church International, in Landover, MD. The Pastor/Dr./ Apostle E. Jean Thompson…yet you say women cannot preach, pastor or be apostles.
How does one become an apostle, male or female?
Oh, I now attend First Baptist Church of Glenarden. Do you think I went from the frying pan to the fire? I’m searching for some truth but wonder if any will be forthcoming.
I will try very hard to give you truth. Did you read the Word document linked to from this posting?
Please note that I don’t say that a woman cannot be pastors or apostles. Anybody can be a pastor. In fact I can send off $25 and get a license to be a pastor.
The question is not “Can a woman be a pastor or an Apostle?” Rather, the question should be “Does God call women as pastors and Apostles?”
Read the short paper by clicking on the link “Peebles”. Read it and let me know what you think. If it generates questions, that’s good. In fact, if you have questions, don’t hesitate to drop me a note at mjones@pulpit-pimps.org. Or post another comment out here. I’m serious.
The apostle question is sort of a different issue but still related. I may cover it later this week or so.
And no, you simply went from one frying pan to another in moving from Integrity to First Baptist.
Of course this is your blog and you will support your views from your own view point. Space does not allow the systematic analysis of your paper (MN:I’d give you a couple of posts to at least see where you are coming from. If you want to do it here, with mulitple comments, knock yourself out. ) , but I would love to establish a dialog with you concerning this issue. I believe that you prayerfully considered your research, but as Aquila and Priscilla instructed Apollos, there are some specific areas of your analysis that need to be more fully explained in a more excellent and perfect way. I have been reading your blog and listening to your interview with G. Craige Lewis, and I hope that in your efforts to present doctrinally sound criticism of those in the body of Christ who you believe are not walking in the light of truth, you have not placed yourself above critique and are open to correction when given in the spirit of truth. (I have found those who quickly profess they are “open” to discuss a subject have already “closed” their minds on the issue and are unwilling to budge, even when correctly refuted, from their own opinions. It is one of the biggest pitfalls of those who profess “true” knowledge on a subject , it puffs one up).
I have read your comments in which you invite posters to clearly define with Scriptural evidence the areas in your paper that may not correctly represent the Holy Spirit’s intent, but I propose this:
If I do indeed display Godly wisdom and discretion in refuting some of your points, I would ask that you would give equal attention on your blog to humbly recant the theological errors that have been identified in your analysis and by prayerful submission lend your voice to promoting the truth that may be revealed. Agreed?
(MN:Agreed. All I ask is that you not run down the usual tithing path. Address the issues discussed in the paper and not use the usual tithing arguments as though they were never addressed in the paper. If you like, I can even give you my real address and we can go from there. If nothing else, I can take our dialogue and make it a posting and yet another paper. I would also ask that you not walk into the dsicussion EXPECTING me to change, otherwise you are making the exact same error that you are suggesting I have made. I have presented my reasons and understanding of Scripture for saying what I have said. I would expect you to do the same thing. Your argument should not contain such phrases as “God showed me…” or “God wouldn’t do such and such…” and other phrases that assume the correctness of the very position position you are trying to demonstrate. I am open to discussion, but it has to be based on the Bible. And “God showed me” isn’t going to cut it.
By the way, you should disprove more than a couple of points. One of the purposes of the paper is to attack the idea of tithing on multiple fronts, not just on a single one. I would expect you to do the same thing in defense of tithing. That would include things like clearly demonstrating that Jesus DID NOT live and die under the law and others such assertions.
I’ve sent you my real address and look forward to your comments. )
Mel, I suspect that you will not hear anything else substantive from Dawn. I may be wrong, but her reply suggests that she has some cognitive dissonance issues……..for example,
She states that you own the blog, and therefore you will support your views “from your own viewpoint”.
Nonsense……..that is precisely what she is doing, supporting her views from her viewpoint, as there is nary a Scriptural reference included as even a partial refutation (whereas the paper you presented is based solely upon Scripture).
And covering for it by saying that space limitations restrict her from sharing her doctrinal challenge is lame at best.
I notice as well that she rather tellingly stated that her correction would come from the spirit of truth……not Scripture.
I predict a cacaphonous din of “God showed me” and “God wouldn’t”, and other such suppositional tripe.
Also, the assumption that she views as a forgone conclusion your error and her correctness is hypocritical when viewed against the subtle accusation that YOU are unteachable. Odd, since her own statements and presumptions paint her in precisely the light in which she views you.
Finally (and I could go on, but I will defer to Dawn’s paper-thin “space limitations” excuse), it is noted that while you have presented a challenge for any who wish to come forward with SCRIPTURAL refutations, she has answered that she would come forward with “Godly wisdom and discretion”. It will be fascinating to learn where she thinks Godly wisdom and discretion are to be found outside of Scripture.
As I said, I predict much “I feel”, and “God couldn’t/wouldn’t”, and “I feel in my spirit” bunk.
Prove me wrong……….I long to see actual debate upon Scriptural grounds. There is precious little of it presented here, since the pimped are woefully ignorant of exegetical analysis. Let’s face it………if they knew the Word, they wouldn’t be pimped in the first place.
I’m open to being pleasantly surprised………but hardly expectant after looking closely at her post. You had better bring something more substantive than you’ve displayed thusfar Dawn……..
Wow. You discerned all that from my comments? That is truly amazing.
I am going to assume that your response is tempered by a long history of dealing with neophytes and dilettantes that neither have a background in scholarly theological study, nor the spiritual maturity to discuss an issue purely for the edification of a brother in the body of Christ. My initial comment was made to (1) be respectful that this is a personal blog and Melvin is under no obligation to enter into a dialogue with me or anyone else for that matter (2) The comments section does not allow space for a thorough discussion. His article was a word document no less than ten pages. In order to give due consideration to his points I would have to have a reply that was equally substantive. (3) I do not have to subtly suggest that a person that I have never met is unteachable. I can just type “you are unteachable” and be done with it.
Your disparaging comments demonstrate that your have pre-judged my motives and dismissed me as having nothing relevant to say. Fortunately for me though, unless Melvin comments under a pseudonym, I did not offer to enter a discussion with you.
(MN: GaryV? Your response? )
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Comment by GaryV
2006-09-24 13:21:00
Well, I must say I’m pleasantly surprised to see you back. Hardly par for the course, as you can readily see if you take the time to peruse the site.
As for your responses………precisely what parts of my observations do you dispute??
Did you or did you not suggest that Melvin was supporting his position from “his own viewpoint” rather than from Scripture??
Did you or did you not then pen these words??
(I have found those who quickly profess they are “open” to discuss a subject have already “closed” their minds on the issue and are unwilling to budge, even when correctly refuted, from their own opinions. It is one of the biggest pitfalls of those who profess “true” knowledge on a subject , it puffs one up).
To whom were you referring?? You present yourself as an authority without regard to the possibility that YOU may be the one having to surrender on the doctrinal field. You never entertain the possibility that you may well be bested. Rather descriptive of a “closed mind”, n’est ce pas??
You have the gall to suggest that someone who presumes to have “true knowledge” is usually unteachable, then presume that YOU have” true knowledge” (which you will kindly deign to share with we unwashed), and then proceed to show yourself as unteachable by failing to even entertain the notion that you may well be proven in the wrong.
Cognitive dissonance………..it’s an ugly thing.
Did you or did you not also state……..”I have read your comments in which you invite posters to clearly define with Scriptural evidence the areas in your paper that may not correctly represent the Holy Spirit’s intent, but I propose this:
(Your own words suggest that you propose something different than clearly defining with Scriptural evidence the flaws in Melvin’s thesis.
You propose instead this…….)
If I do indeed display Godly wisdom and discretion in refuting some of your points (Apparently, you are going to refute with “Godly wisdom and discernment”, as opposed to Scriptural refutation)I would ask that you would give equal attention on your blog to humbly recant the theological errors (again, the supposition of presuming to know the subject completely…….an accusation you levelled earlier at Mel, as well as the supposition that Mel will be the one “Humbly recanting” errors………which seems pretty “Puffed Up”……….your words. Not to mention the obvious logical conclusion that since you have already determined yourself to be the victor in a debate that has yet to occur, thereby illustrating yourself as “puffed up” you must hereby be marked as unteachable by your own definition)
I stand by my post, as well as the conclusion I reached.
At best, if I have misinterpreted your statements (and I wish to be shown how, point by point)your ability to clearly use the written word to convey your thoughts is……to put it kindly…….. marginal. At worst, you’ve displayed precisely the unsavory attitudes you’ve attributed to Melvin.
There’s a word for that………what is it?? I know it starts with an “H” and ends with an “ypocrite”…….don’t help me, I’ll get it.
Once again…………you had better bring something far better to the table. And try to keep it as monosyllabic as possible for all we “Neophytes and dilletants”. ;-))
My apologies. I just assumed you were referring to the paper on tithing. If I had followed it through, I would have seen that your posting was to the issue of women as pastors. A lesson learned by me once again — never make assumptions.
Mary,
In addition to Melvins Peebles go to prca.org(tight orthodox teaching) and search for women in church office. It may seem like a lot but since you are searchin, you may as well……..search. And praise God for the Melvin Jones’ in this dark time of great deception for exposing so much of the apostasy in the churches. To God be the glory.
I believe that God called women into leadership what and how we define this role rest entirely on what our theological background and our personally interpretation of what god says concerning five fold ministry, use of gifts and availability.
In cases where men failed in their responsibility, God has intervened by using woman such as Deborah. In bible, time women did play a key role in church development as well as nurturing Christians.
Role allocated to women depends solely on the leadership of the church. We must be careful not to grieve the spirit of God by being the judge of who can do what in the house of God.
I personally do believe in women heading a church but if there is no man in the area available to answer God call, he will use who so ever is willing. He is God.
Kate, that all sounds good. But what does the Bible say. Your arguments are all addressed in the paper available. If you are going to argue in favor, tell me why the paper is wrong, from scripture, not from your feelings or your idea of what God would do.
2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that “no”prophecy of scripture is of any “private” interpretation…
John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, and they shall be all taught of God…
John 16:13 Howbeit when he the Spirit of truth is come, he will guide you into all truth…
Gal 1:11 But I certify you brethern that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
Galatians 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
2. Deborah Judged Isreal:
Judges 4:4 And Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth, she judged Isreal at that time.
Judges 17:6 In those days there was no king in Isreal, but every man did that which was right in his own eyes.
Judges 21:25 In those days there was on king in Isreal: every man did that which was right in his own eyes.
Deborah judged Isreal at that time when every man did that which was right in his own eyes. She without being raised up by God, judged Isreal. Her greatest accomplishment was to conquer Sisera yet, in Hebrews chapter 11 it was “Barak’s” faith that wrought victory.
In Judges 4:8 we read that Barak was a coward who would only go if Deborah went with him.
Judges 4:8 and Barak said unto her, If thou wilt go with me, then I will go: but if thou wilt not go with me, then I will not go.
Deborah appears to be the one with the faith. But God gives Barak the credit!
Hebrews 11: 32 And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of “Barak”, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets: 33 Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions.
3. Deborah was called a “prophetess” :
Judges 4:4 And Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth, she judged Israel at that time.
The Hebrew word translated “prophetess” in our KJV is the word “nebiyah” which means “a prophets wife.” Strongs Number 05031. So Deborah was neither a God called preacher, a God called judge, or a woman of greater than ordinary faith (remember that Barak is the one, not Deborah, accounted by God to have been the vessel of faith in Hebrews 11). Further, her being called a “prophetess” meant nothing more than that she was married to a prophet.
4. Righteous Judgement”
John 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgement.
1 Corinthians 2:15 But he that is spritual judgeth all things yet he himself is judged of no man.
Matthew 17:5 …This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased; hear ye Him!
1 Corinthians 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
1 Timothy 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, not usurp authority over the man but to be in silence.
5. Women authorized of God to teach:
Titus 2:4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husband, to love their children.
Titus 2:5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands that the wod of God be not blasphemed.
6. The Jezebel Conspiracy:
Revelation 2:20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which “calleth herself a prophetess”, to “teach” and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
You know what? I can sum it all up right here and right now Melvin? You have no accurate interpretation of the scriptures of the Lord because Mary was the very first woman preacher in the word of the Lord.
You can try to give any kind of scripture to support what you are trying to say about God not allowing women to preach and Pastor a ministry because I was the member of a church for over 9 years and sat under a very anointed and dynamic woman of God who knew excactly what she was talking about, and because of how the Lord has used her, my knowledge of the Lord’s word has tremendously increased.
For you to come up in here at this website and say that God didn’t call women to be Pastors or preachers means that you have just denied the power of God and you are saying that he dosn’r know what He’s doing. You have a lot of nerve. (Melvins Note: Actually all this doesn’t mean God doesn’t know what He’s doing. It means you don’t know what you’re talking about. )
And actually, I think that Apostle Pebbales is dong a great job down at J. City of Praise.
You know you are so very clearly mistaken because you know I just hit a nerve in the spirit. Don’t get mad at me because you can’t interpet the scriptures correctly, and you know IF women can’t be Pastors why is God’s favor on their ministry then you tell me that and guess what some of them are not even PIMPETS and the favor of God is still upon their ministry.
Please tell me what you mean by “God’s Favor?” If you mean because Paula White and Juanita Bynum have “Large” crowds at their speaking engagements, that is not the “Biblical definition” of “God’s Favor.” Remember, Jim Jones had a “Large” following; Rev. Myun Son Moon has a “Large” following, as well as many other cult leaders. Again, what do YOU mean by “God’s Favor?”
And how do you know what God is capabke odoing anyway?
becae you sho aint his messenger. And that I do know
And, if they don’t tell people who they are ,why does it matter to you anyway ESPECIALLY if you declare that you are a Christian. and guess what whatever God has blessd them with, YOU and no other church folk,or any DEMON in HELL! can do a nything to stop God from blessing them.
Then Yes I Do said:
You know you need a life and you need one real quick because all of this jesouslyand bitterness that you have about these people isn’t going to solve anything and you most certainly know that.
Then Yes I Do said:
Hey melvin you can call me anything you want because if you and all the other haters don’t straightnen up, then you won’t be in the pimp line on judgement day, but in the SUPERSPIRITUAL ETERNALLY STUPID LOOKING CHURCHFOLK line on your way to HELL your own self. And another thing I know I’m not a demon because I keep up with my own business and try to make sure that GOD works on me and cleans all of the mess out of me. And don’t try to get all caught up in Pastor bryant’s life and any other person.See that’s what you’re doing you’re just caught all up in they’re bussiness. you just keep on examining yourself.
I also know who IAM as well so I don’t know who you call yourself talking about who you’re going to expose.
And finally, Yes I Do said:
as a matter of fact this also goes to albert
And I believe that last incomprehensible statement is the last Yes I Do gets to make. No more posts for you!!!
Sister the mere fact that you are getting angry is a clear indication that you have some doubts. You can argue with everyone on this site but you can not argue with the word of God. It is hard to digest but the word does make some clear statementa about this matter.
Brother Melvin and the others has not defamed your pastor he just told you to take a good look at the inerrant word of God. I know it is hard to take but look at it.
Man is carnal and prone to make mistakes but the read the word yourself with a clear mind forgetting what you what wer taught but focusing on the word.
John 20:17 - Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not ye ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
John 20:18 - Mary Magadalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the Lord, and that he had spoken these things unto her.
Question: How does a woman “Bishop, Pastor, or Elder” become the husband of one wife?
1 Timothy 3:2 - A bishop then must be blameless, the “husband of one wife”, vigilant, sober, of good behavior, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
True women of God:
Proverbs: 3:5 Trust in the Lord with all thine heart and lean not unto thine own understanding, in all thy ways acknowledge Him and He shall direct thy paths.
True women of God:
Are committed to discovering and becoming all that God had in mind for them, and readily accept all that He requires of them through His Word.
1 Timothy 5:14 - I will therefore that the younger women marry, bear children, guide the house, and give none occasion to the adversary to speak reproachfull.
Proverbs: 31:11 - The heart of her husband doth safely trust in her, so that he shall have no need of spoil. She will do him good and not evil all the days of his life.
Titus 2:3-5 - The aged women likewise that they be in behavior as becometh holiness. Not false accusers, not given to much wine, “teachers of good things that they may teach the (younger women) to be sober to love their husband, to love their children to be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands that the Word of God be not blasphemed.”
True women of God:
Seek those things that God wills for them to do, and persue those things with a passion born out of love for Him, and offer them from a heart of true submission to His Word.
Jesus is Lord!!!!
Then you agree? Women shouldn’t be pastors.
Melvin
God call and send his people. Man only recognize what God had already established. Yes, God use anyone and everyone.
“Man only recognize what God had already established.”
SO we should ignore what God had ESTABLISHED?” Or should we ADD to his word? I am sorry but I normally follow what is established and not “buck the system”
No, we do not agre with that concept. AlmightyGod can do anything but fail. He called and sent women to preach and do His work, If women and men don’t preach how will you get the word of God.
Other than those women who were with their husbands, show me an instance where God called a women to LEAD(Pastor) a flock. We must set a precedent here.
He used Deborah as a Judge over Israel. That was a head position.
Deborah is listed as the lone woman judge among thirteen listed men. As has been discussed previously, if there IS no man to take the reigns a woman can and should rather than leave the Gospel unproclaimed. The sheer numbers here (13 to 1) tell us that Deborah is just such an exception………
If God had women in mind as part of His plan in the leading of the flock, we would have seen women Levite priests serving in the Temple. Women High Priests. Women pastors in the New Testament.
But it is an exception, not God’s prescribed plan. Women CAN teach, and the Bible tells us that they SHOULD teach outside the context of spiritual authority. They SHOULD spread the Gospel to the lost. They SHOULD display the fruit of the Spirit. They SHOULD exercise their God given gifts.
It’s not a LESSER position that women are relegated to, simply a DIFFERENT position. Is Christ LESSER than the Father because He has SUBJECTED Himself to the Father’s order?? Certainly not.
The church would be at a standstill without the ministry of women. But that ministry must be subject to the order ordained by God, just as Christ’s ministry is subject to the order ordained by God.
The only reason women are offended by their ordained position is because we carry the authority structure mentality we learned from the world into the church. In the world, the CEO is the one we aspire to be. The man or woman in charge, calling the shots, wielding authority and power and demanding respect.
We carry this Godless notion into the Body and superimpose the CEO concept over the office of pastor/elder. Women get offended because they feel blocked unfairly from the prestige, power, authority, and respect of being the Top Dog.
Yet, according to Christ and Paul and every other inspired writer, the position of elder/pastor is not a position of authority and power but of servanthood and meekness.
Hi Deb,
God raised up Othniel as a Judge: Judges 3:9
God raised up Gideon: Judges 6:12 - 14
God raised up Samson: Judges 13:24 - 25
But concerning Deborah, it is not said that God raised her up as a Judge. What is said regarding her is that she “judged Israel at that time”.
Judges 4:4 - And Deb’-o-rah, a prophetess, the wife of Lap’-i-doth, “she judged Israel at that time.
At what time did Deborah judge Israel?
Answer: At a time when “every man did that which was right in his own eyes.
Judges 17:6 - In those days there was no king in Israel, but every man did that which was right in his own eyes.
Judges 21:25 - In those days there was no king in Israel: every man did that which was right in his own eyes.
Remember: It is Barak in Hebrews 11:32 - 33 that God accounted to have been the vessel of faith, not Deborah.
In the love of Jesus Christ,
Deb
Amen, also there are differences with regard to the office of the priesthood, and socio-political governments (one appointed as a judge).
The two are not intertwined. In the OT, there are (approx) over 700 accounts of a priest…and not one was female. There is a difference between the offices indeed.
lol… the bible never said “If women and men don’t preach how will you get the word of God”.. Instead the scriptures gives the protocol and qualifiations of an Elder and decon. Now if a woman can be the husband of one wife, then that would make God an endorser of homosexuality. Rather, if you read closely the church gathering is an extention of the immediate family. The head of the house should be the head at church. For how can a man be the head at home and fall to the tail at church behind his wife? But i’m sure this is not going to register.
TOG….this is exactly the image I have a hard time wrestling with. On one hand I say, when Paul was repremanding the church at Corinth….this was because there was no order, in which this needed to be established.
Women exercising their gifts out of place in the name of worship.
The other side…which appears more prevalent is the fact that God has ordained the man to be head of his own house.
Then how in fact is he to relegate to his wife in public worship when she is instructed to submit unto his leadership in the home?
Col 3:18
Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord.
I know of someone (whom I have not spoken to in a while) whom sits underneath a female pastor.
Now, I really wonder (because this Pastor is a newlywed) how this falls in order because she is the lead of this congregation in which her husband is an Elder……and designated the head by God according to scripture.
Eph 5:22
Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
Eph 5:23
For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
Eph 5:24
Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so [let] the wives [be] to their own husbands in every thing.
Eph 5:25
Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
This subject causes much division because on one hand, it obviously doesn’t “ruffle” feathers by making such an un-liberalistic statement of a woman not being called to lead her congregants, let alone her husband.
I have come into contact with statements concerning why Paul demanded this order, and many appear to shy away with regard to the appearance of a sexist.
Question an issue such as this, and more often than not people will throw one to the wolves.
In the order that God created, ordained, and established with regard to worship as well….how can it be that the leadership of the wife be authoritative of her husband in God’s church when man is designated the head of the wife in EVERYTHING according to scripture?
1 Corinthians 11:3
But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman [is] the man; and the head of Christ [is] God.
Rom 3:4
God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
While not one to scorn an individual in this predicament, the truth will do just that. I pray for those whom really desire to know the truth concerning order.
Not being above reproach, this agenda appears clearly addressed according to the Word.
1 Corinthians 11:7-9
Yes,
I totally agree in accordance with the Word of God that women “can not” and certainly should not attempt to Pastor.
Jesus is Lord!!!
God is no respecter of persons. People really need to have an understanding of the true Word of God before they claim to agree with it. If the Word of God can proceed out of the mouth of a jack ass then why not a woman or any other creature for that matter. When will we stop trying to pick apart the people delivering the Word of God and just take the Word of God for the truth that it is?
(MN: Granted that many of the subjects of this site are jackasses, but would you attend a church that has a donkey as a pastor? Do you think any donkeys served as priests in the tabernacle? Besides, you really should remember that God was showing a great deal of mercy to Baal, a false prophet) by having the donkey warn him. )
Leslie,
We simply “can not” pick and choose the parts of scripture that we want to live by, then cast out the rest.
It is the Lord himself who commanded in 1 Cor 14:34-35 Let your women keep silent in the churches: for it is “not” permitted unto them to them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. (35) And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a “shame” for women to speak in the church.
What is there in 1 Cor 14:34-35 that is difficult to understand?
I ask you woman: What? came the Word of God out from you? or came it unto you? 1Cor 14:36
Yes, of course it is a blessing to see women desiring to serve the Lord but only “if” it is within accordance too the manner prescribed in the Bible.
God seeks faithfulness and obedience. And He “never” rescinded or modified his command in 1 Tim 2:11-15 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. (12) But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. (13) For Adam was first formed, then Eve. (14) And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. (15) Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
In the love of the True and Living Jesus,
Deb
Leslie, no one is saying that a man can’t LEARN from women. I certainly have, and do.I praise God for the Godly women I’ve been blessed to know, many much more seasoned in the Word than I.
HOWEVER……….that is an entirely separate issue from church leadership in the pastoral office. The Bible is quite clear on that issue, and the Word restricts that office to men.
That is not a denigration of women at all, any more than it denigrates Jesus to put Himself in submission to the Father. God is a God of order………and He picks the order, both in the home and in the church.
Again, I want to be clear………..any man who claims he cannot LEARN from a Godly woman is foolish.
Any man (or woman) who sits under a woman pastor is more foolish still, since they violate the clear teaching of Scripture.
TO GARYV: “Any man (or woman) who sits under a woman pastor is more foolish still, since they violate the clear teaching of Scripture.” AMEN!
AMEN ! Speaking as a woman of God, when I was first born again, it must have been my recreated spirit that prohibited me from ever “sitting under a woman ‘pastor, elder, deaconess, prophetess, apostle, evangelist, or teacher’.” My gut told me it was out of order! This does NOT mean that I’ve never learned anything from another sister in the Lord, but I’ve since found that God’s order is the ONLY order. The women of God of the Scriptures(beginning with Eve), as well as some professed “sisters” on the World Wide Web, are clear and present examples of such blatant error!!!!!! The females in these ill-appointed offices need to sit under men of God WHO SPEAK THE ORACLES OF GOD without mixture.
Amen!!
Beryle, I commend you that as a woman that you would admit to that. Its sad to see how much of an influence the feminist movement have had on the church and society at large.
thank you
hi Leslie,
Church leadership is supposed to be a reflection of home leadership. God ordained the man to be the head - period. Feminism is one of the causes of women mistakenly believing that because they can now bring home the bacon, fry it up in a pan, and do just about everything else a man can- that that also transfers over to spiritual things and God’s order for His Church.
How is it that some women claim to be under their husband’s authority in their home but as soon as the venue changes from their house to a building w/ crosses hanging in them - she now becomes the spiritual authority over her husband and other men. it doesn’t make sense.
blessings&peace 2u
Thank you! mrs Maverick. I always make that exact point when discussing this topic. How is it that the man is the head at home, but fall back to the tail in church. It doesnt make sense what so ever.
That is foolishness, I ‘ve been going to Jericho since 1988 and, um Apostle Betty P. Peebles, DD packs us with word everytime we come in contact with her, so the LIES you tell.
(MN: Here’s a clue - If she teaches that women should be pastors, she’s not teaching you the truth. If you believe women should be pastors, then you have been badly taught.
By the way, when she preaches and writes, does it hold the same authority as Scripture? )
Well…..she packs you full of SOMETHING …
Jericho member,
I would like to know where in scripture that God gives authority to women pastors or apostles. To my sad regret, its appearent that people just go with anything thats happening and popular. As soon as you question anything that condradicts scripture, you are labeled a zelot, radical, crazy, etc…. You would think with all of the testifying, rolling on the floor, weaves falling out, rabies dribbling out of your mouth - that people would have an understanding of basic truth. But i suppose basic truth or “milk” isn’t basic anymore.
Additionally, much of what she says isn’t true. And as such, it is not the word of God.
After shaping my iron against iron, I must agree with Melvin that the oneness movement is a clear sign that whom ever
Ascribes to it is a heretic. and cannot be save.What oneness does is call God the father a liar, Jesus clearly states that his testimony of himself means nothing, it is the testimony of the father and the works given to him to finsh that validate Jesus the Christ. John 5, read the Chapter. Do you believe that Jesus only believers are saved?
Leslie, God’s prefect order will not allow for a woman to lead his Church, the word clearly states in 1Cor 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman [is] the man; and the head of Christ [is] God. See also 1Cor 11:7. Acts 10:34 must be read in its entirety, it has nothing to do with leadership, it has to do with salvation. A woman that leads a congregation is just as rebellious as a man that refuses to lead.
Have you given your interpretation of this scripture to the Holy Spirit. The Bible clearly says “man will fail”. The only good one is God and that we come to thou..it changed to him and he from thy and thou you know..through the Lord, Jesus Christ…if there is no man…am I a lost soul…would God allow his own to be totally subjected and led by the flesh who can not save our souls? There is a power greater than “man” the power of the holy spirit which is not a she or he and is not limited to him or her. God has no chosen person and thou divine order is just that divine to do as thou pleases. How can man be a woman’s head when sometimes he doesn’t even know where he left his socks. I invite you to pray and fast on these scriptures and allow the holy spirit for interpretation…for prophesy is in part…and the only whole is God.
Michelle, is this some kind of tongues?? Seriously, I can’t understand a word of it, so I have no idea what you’re talking about. If you are referring to any specific verses of the Bible, please reference them to support your view.
lol, its funny how people reference to the female donkey in justifying female pastors. Yet they clearly miss what voice came out of the animal.
I’ve been chuckling at that repeated reference as well.
We who take the Word as it is written are accused of degrading women………….yet when attempting to defend the unScriptural practice of ordaining women, the common response is “Well, if God can speak through an ass, surely He could speak through a woman!!”
In other words, they use a talking ass (who actually never spoke………an angel did) as a justification for woman pastors. And they claim WE are the ones degrading women!!! LOL
No you di’ent!
:-) 
It’ll get a chuckle every time!
You should get a better understanding of the word of God. Go into all the world and preach the gospel. The word is to everyone, even you.
And to whom was Jesus speaking at this point? Those MEN whom HE has chosen. Now those MEN were to start what we call the church becuse we all know that those 12 (excluding Judas) could not reach everyone in the world so as the church grew and others were ordained to keep the work going(read the epistles). The greek word for “preach” in this instance is “euaggelizo” whic mean ” to announce good news (”evangelize”) especially the gospel:–declare, bring good tidings, preach (the gospel). Now every creature is capable of doing that but when it comes to pastoring a church or leading, go back to the beginning and see how God ordained that and also read, or ‘Study” the epistles for yourself.
Our church has some women teachers in sunday school.
We also have a woman minister but I have never heard her preach.
As far as I know she holds no other leadership postions in the church.
We have a daycare where women teach but I’m not sure of the curriculum.
Our pastor did allow a woman to preach at our annual womens day,
I was a little leary about it but I didn’t understand what I do now.
I might have to talk about this with him one day.
All in all……
I definitely agree that women should not be pastors.
Question: What about open forums where women speak?
It’s sad that people are confused about the gender- of who should preach the word or not. When people are dieing by the millions and your concern is this. Just think how many of those people died without God in their lives, because of the lack of women. Our men are in prison playing with each others manhood…
OK, I will bite. Please clarify this statement.
“Our men are in prison playing with each others manhood… ”
Who is the “OUR” you are referring? Is it the church or a race of people? I know how that comment is used in the african american society but is this to imply african americans only?
Also, do you believe God is Sovergn? Let’s look at this statement for a second.
” Just think how many of those people died without God in their lives”
Do you think God would allow people to die without hearing his word ONCE in their lives? If not, then everyone did not get a chance to accept him before they died. Would that be a just God? Now these people could look at God and say, “no one ever told me about you, so I did not have a chance.” Do you think God would allow that excuse?
Thirdly:
“It’s sad that people are confused about the gender- of who should preach the word or not.”
No, I think God put the qualifications in His Word but because of human agenda, we want to make it fit to OUR standards therefore we will not study His word or ignore what God had placed in HIS word. Let’s look at anything that was made and we would see that it came with a manual. What if we deviated from that manual, what would we have? Look at any established business or organization, it has rules and regulations or bylaws, standards and procedures etc. What if employees started adding what they thought it should be like or what they would like it to be and did it their way. How functional would that business be? Just food for thought.
God, qualify women and men, send and call, anoint and appoints to carry out his will. Our beliefs has nothing to do with whether it’s should or shouldn’t be. Not all listen to the a man and not all listen to women. God will use whom ever will do His will.
Don’t allow the lack of knowledge to destroy you while you focused on simplicity. May God enlighten you all.
My dear, brave Anonymous. Please provide ONE instance in Scripture where God appointed a woman to pastor a congregetion. No one said women can’t preach the Gospel………….women have always preached the Gospel. But Scripture allows no concession for women PASTORS, or for them to have spiritual AUTHORITY over men.
You may not like it, but unless you can refute it from Scripture rather than your hormonally-induced preference, you have no grounds for your position.
On the New Birth Missionary Baptist Church website there is a biography of their First Lady, Elder Vanessa Griffin Long.
Here is an excerpt from the article:
Mr. Eddie Long has ignored scripture by appointing his wife an Elder, proving that he does not hold to “sound” biblical doctrine.
According the Titus:
Titus 1:5 - For this cause left I thee in Crete that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting and ordain ELDERS in every city, as I appointed thee.
Titus 1:6 - If any be blameless, the HUSBAND of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.
There are no women Elders/Bishops according to the Holy Word of God. Whose report will people believe? Eddie Long or Almight God and Savior Jesus Christ.
Let God be ture and every man a liar.
In the love of Christ Jesus,
Deb
Hi Sister: Amen! In the mouth of two or three witnesses let every Word be established:
1 Timothy 3:3 says, “…not addicted to wine or pugnacious, but gentle, uncontentious, FREE FROM THE LOVE OF MONEY.”
1 Timothy 3:5 says, “…(but if a man does not know how to manage his OWN HOUSEhold, how will he take care of the church of God?).” The word “house” here bears a yet deeper meaning. [Perhaps the IRS can add relevance here along with their booklet explaining the pros/cons of including family members on your payroll.]
1 Timothy 3:7 says, “And he must have a good reputation with those OUTSIDE the church, so that he may not fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.”
Titus 1:7 says, “For the overseer must be above reproach as God’s steward, not self-willed, not quick-tempered [includes swearing in the hearing & cursing AT the congregation of the Saints], not addicted to wine, not pugnacious [there’s that word again], NOT FOND OF SORDID GAIN,…”
Titus 1:11 says, “who must be silenced because they are upsetting whole families, teaching things they should not teach [’fresh sperm’, among other atrocities ?], FOR THE SAKE OF SORDID GAIN.
1 Peter 5:2 says, “…shepherd the flock of God among you, exercising oversight not under compulsion, but voluntarily, according to the will of God [confirming Titus]; and NOT FOR SORDID GAIN, but with eagerness; nor yet as lording it over those allotted to your charge, but proving to be examples to the flock.
“And do not participate in the UNFRUITFUL deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them; for it is disgraceful even to speak of the things which are done BY THEM in secret (Ephesians 5:11-12).
May the one, true, living, Everlasting God continue to exalt Himself! Beryle
I would appreciate if all of this BACK BITING AND TALK WOULD STOP AND WE BEGIN TO PRAY.
We do pray……….for it is what the Bible commands.
We also bring to light the hidden deeds of darkness……..for it is also what the Bible commands.
Nice “half Gospel” you’ve got going there……
correction, women “may not” teach. Can not is a question of ability, may not denies the right or authority from the King who sits on the throne governing the church and the world. God did not give women the authority to teach/preach in his church. He gave them the ability to teach, but in the home. In 1 Tim.2 when speaking on the conduct of women in the church Paul appealed to the creation order in his explaination for this instruction. I was raised in the COGIC church, they deny in practice and in their non-doctrinal teaching so many of the systematic doctrinal teachings in Gods word that it’s beyond reason. Some of the most backwoods thinkers in the brotherhood. If Bishop Mason didn’t say it they won’t believe it. A bunch of goofballs.
Interesting….I recently came out of a female dominated, toxic church, Integrity Church International, in Landover, MD. The Pastor/Dr./ Apostle E. Jean Thompson…yet you say women cannot preach, pastor or be apostles.
How does one become an apostle, male or female?
Oh, I now attend First Baptist Church of Glenarden. Do you think I went from the frying pan to the fire? I’m searching for some truth but wonder if any will be forthcoming.
I will try very hard to give you truth. Did you read the Word document linked to from this posting?
Please note that I don’t say that a woman cannot be pastors or apostles. Anybody can be a pastor. In fact I can send off $25 and get a license to be a pastor.
The question is not “Can a woman be a pastor or an Apostle?” Rather, the question should be “Does God call women as pastors and Apostles?”
Read the short paper by clicking on the link “Peebles”. Read it and let me know what you think. If it generates questions, that’s good. In fact, if you have questions, don’t hesitate to drop me a note at mjones@pulpit-pimps.org. Or post another comment out here. I’m serious.
The apostle question is sort of a different issue but still related. I may cover it later this week or so.
And no, you simply went from one frying pan to another in moving from Integrity to First Baptist.
Melvin Jones
Of course this is your blog and you will support your views from your own view point. Space does not allow the systematic analysis of your paper (MN: I’d give you a couple of posts to at least see where you are coming from. If you want to do it here, with mulitple comments, knock yourself out. ) , but I would love to establish a dialog with you concerning this issue. I believe that you prayerfully considered your research, but as Aquila and Priscilla instructed Apollos, there are some specific areas of your analysis that need to be more fully explained in a more excellent and perfect way. I have been reading your blog and listening to your interview with G. Craige Lewis, and I hope that in your efforts to present doctrinally sound criticism of those in the body of Christ who you believe are not walking in the light of truth, you have not placed yourself above critique and are open to correction when given in the spirit of truth. (I have found those who quickly profess they are “open” to discuss a subject have already “closed” their minds on the issue and are unwilling to budge, even when correctly refuted, from their own opinions. It is one of the biggest pitfalls of those who profess “true” knowledge on a subject , it puffs one up).
I have read your comments in which you invite posters to clearly define with Scriptural evidence the areas in your paper that may not correctly represent the Holy Spirit’s intent, but I propose this:
If I do indeed display Godly wisdom and discretion in refuting some of your points, I would ask that you would give equal attention on your blog to humbly recant the theological errors that have been identified in your analysis and by prayerful submission lend your voice to promoting the truth that may be revealed. Agreed?
(MN: Agreed. All I ask is that you not run down the usual tithing path. Address the issues discussed in the paper and not use the usual tithing arguments as though they were never addressed in the paper. If you like, I can even give you my real address and we can go from there. If nothing else, I can take our dialogue and make it a posting and yet another paper. I would also ask that you not walk into the dsicussion EXPECTING me to change, otherwise you are making the exact same error that you are suggesting I have made. I have presented my reasons and understanding of Scripture for saying what I have said. I would expect you to do the same thing. Your argument should not contain such phrases as “God showed me…” or “God wouldn’t do such and such…” and other phrases that assume the correctness of the very position position you are trying to demonstrate. I am open to discussion, but it has to be based on the Bible. And “God showed me” isn’t going to cut it.
By the way, you should disprove more than a couple of points. One of the purposes of the paper is to attack the idea of tithing on multiple fronts, not just on a single one. I would expect you to do the same thing in defense of tithing. That would include things like clearly demonstrating that Jesus DID NOT live and die under the law and others such assertions.
I’ve sent you my real address and look forward to your comments. )
Mel, I suspect that you will not hear anything else substantive from Dawn. I may be wrong, but her reply suggests that she has some cognitive dissonance issues……..for example,
She states that you own the blog, and therefore you will support your views “from your own viewpoint”.
Nonsense……..that is precisely what she is doing, supporting her views from her viewpoint, as there is nary a Scriptural reference included as even a partial refutation (whereas the paper you presented is based solely upon Scripture).
And covering for it by saying that space limitations restrict her from sharing her doctrinal challenge is lame at best.
I notice as well that she rather tellingly stated that her correction would come from the spirit of truth……not Scripture.
I predict a cacaphonous din of “God showed me” and “God wouldn’t”, and other such suppositional tripe.
Also, the assumption that she views as a forgone conclusion your error and her correctness is hypocritical when viewed against the subtle accusation that YOU are unteachable. Odd, since her own statements and presumptions paint her in precisely the light in which she views you.
Finally (and I could go on, but I will defer to Dawn’s paper-thin “space limitations” excuse), it is noted that while you have presented a challenge for any who wish to come forward with SCRIPTURAL refutations, she has answered that she would come forward with “Godly wisdom and discretion”. It will be fascinating to learn where she thinks Godly wisdom and discretion are to be found outside of Scripture.
As I said, I predict much “I feel”, and “God couldn’t/wouldn’t”, and “I feel in my spirit” bunk.
Prove me wrong……….I long to see actual debate upon Scriptural grounds. There is precious little of it presented here, since the pimped are woefully ignorant of exegetical analysis. Let’s face it………if they knew the Word, they wouldn’t be pimped in the first place.
I’m open to being pleasantly surprised………but hardly expectant after looking closely at her post. You had better bring something more substantive than you’ve displayed thusfar Dawn……..
Wow. You discerned all that from my comments? That is truly amazing.
I am going to assume that your response is tempered by a long history of dealing with neophytes and dilettantes that neither have a background in scholarly theological study, nor the spiritual maturity to discuss an issue purely for the edification of a brother in the body of Christ. My initial comment was made to (1) be respectful that this is a personal blog and Melvin is under no obligation to enter into a dialogue with me or anyone else for that matter (2) The comments section does not allow space for a thorough discussion. His article was a word document no less than ten pages. In order to give due consideration to his points I would have to have a reply that was equally substantive. (3) I do not have to subtly suggest that a person that I have never met is unteachable. I can just type “you are unteachable” and be done with it.
Your disparaging comments demonstrate that your have pre-judged my motives and dismissed me as having nothing relevant to say. Fortunately for me though, unless Melvin comments under a pseudonym, I did not offer to enter a discussion with you.
(MN: GaryV? Your response? )
Well, I must say I’m pleasantly surprised to see you back. Hardly par for the course, as you can readily see if you take the time to peruse the site.
As for your responses………precisely what parts of my observations do you dispute??
Did you or did you not suggest that Melvin was supporting his position from “his own viewpoint” rather than from Scripture??
Did you or did you not then pen these words??
(I have found those who quickly profess they are “open” to discuss a subject have already “closed” their minds on the issue and are unwilling to budge, even when correctly refuted, from their own opinions. It is one of the biggest pitfalls of those who profess “true” knowledge on a subject , it puffs one up).
To whom were you referring?? You present yourself as an authority without regard to the possibility that YOU may be the one having to surrender on the doctrinal field. You never entertain the possibility that you may well be bested. Rather descriptive of a “closed mind”, n’est ce pas??
You have the gall to suggest that someone who presumes to have “true knowledge” is usually unteachable, then presume that YOU have” true knowledge” (which you will kindly deign to share with we unwashed), and then proceed to show yourself as unteachable by failing to even entertain the notion that you may well be proven in the wrong.
Cognitive dissonance………..it’s an ugly thing.
Did you or did you not also state……..”I have read your comments in which you invite posters to clearly define with Scriptural evidence the areas in your paper that may not correctly represent the Holy Spirit’s intent, but I propose this:
(Your own words suggest that you propose something different than clearly defining with Scriptural evidence the flaws in Melvin’s thesis.
You propose instead this…….)
If I do indeed display Godly wisdom and discretion in refuting some of your points (Apparently, you are going to refute with “Godly wisdom and discernment”, as opposed to Scriptural refutation)I would ask that you would give equal attention on your blog to humbly recant the theological errors (again, the supposition of presuming to know the subject completely…….an accusation you levelled earlier at Mel, as well as the supposition that Mel will be the one “Humbly recanting” errors………which seems pretty “Puffed Up”……….your words. Not to mention the obvious logical conclusion that since you have already determined yourself to be the victor in a debate that has yet to occur, thereby illustrating yourself as “puffed up” you must hereby be marked as unteachable by your own definition)
I stand by my post, as well as the conclusion I reached.
At best, if I have misinterpreted your statements (and I wish to be shown how, point by point)your ability to clearly use the written word to convey your thoughts is……to put it kindly…….. marginal. At worst, you’ve displayed precisely the unsavory attitudes you’ve attributed to Melvin.
There’s a word for that………what is it?? I know it starts with an “H” and ends with an “ypocrite”…….don’t help me, I’ll get it.
Once again…………you had better bring something far better to the table. And try to keep it as monosyllabic as possible for all we “Neophytes and dilletants”. ;-))
Thank you sir, I have read your response and comments are forthcoming.
Thank you for responding. I have sent you an email.
My apologies. I just assumed you were referring to the paper on tithing. If I had followed it through, I would have seen that your posting was to the issue of women as pastors. A lesson learned by me once again — never make assumptions.
Mary,
In addition to Melvins Peebles go to prca.org(tight orthodox teaching) and search for women in church office. It may seem like a lot but since you are searchin, you may as well……..search. And praise God for the Melvin Jones’ in this dark time of great deception for exposing so much of the apostasy in the churches. To God be the glory.
Seek and ye shall find……
I believe that God called women into leadership what and how we define this role rest entirely on what our theological background and our personally interpretation of what god says concerning five fold ministry, use of gifts and availability.
In cases where men failed in their responsibility, God has intervened by using woman such as Deborah. In bible, time women did play a key role in church development as well as nurturing Christians.
Role allocated to women depends solely on the leadership of the church. We must be careful not to grieve the spirit of God by being the judge of who can do what in the house of God.
I personally do believe in women heading a church but if there is no man in the area available to answer God call, he will use who so ever is willing. He is God.
Kate, that all sounds good. But what does the Bible say. Your arguments are all addressed in the paper available. If you are going to argue in favor, tell me why the paper is wrong, from scripture, not from your feelings or your idea of what God would do.
Melvin
IF A MAN CAN NOT GET HIS SELF TOGETHER TO LEAD GODS CHURCH, THAN WHO WILL. WOMAN.
I’m sure God is more than able to put a man in place to do it.
I believe that women can pastor a church, but not sure about the apostle bit. there nothing to support this office for women in the bible.
1. Personal/Private interpretations of scripture:
2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that “no”prophecy of scripture is of any “private” interpretation…
John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, and they shall be all taught of God…
John 16:13 Howbeit when he the Spirit of truth is come, he will guide you into all truth…
Gal 1:11 But I certify you brethern that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
Galatians 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
2. Deborah Judged Isreal:
Judges 4:4 And Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth, she judged Isreal at that time.
Judges 17:6 In those days there was no king in Isreal, but every man did that which was right in his own eyes.
Judges 21:25 In those days there was on king in Isreal: every man did that which was right in his own eyes.
Deborah judged Isreal at that time when every man did that which was right in his own eyes. She without being raised up by God, judged Isreal. Her greatest accomplishment was to conquer Sisera yet, in Hebrews chapter 11 it was “Barak’s” faith that wrought victory.
In Judges 4:8 we read that Barak was a coward who would only go if Deborah went with him.
Judges 4:8 and Barak said unto her, If thou wilt go with me, then I will go: but if thou wilt not go with me, then I will not go.
Deborah appears to be the one with the faith. But God gives Barak the credit!
Hebrews 11: 32 And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of “Barak”, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets: 33 Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions.
3. Deborah was called a “prophetess” :
Judges 4:4 And Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth, she judged Israel at that time.
The Hebrew word translated “prophetess” in our KJV is the word “nebiyah” which means “a prophets wife.” Strongs Number 05031. So Deborah was neither a God called preacher, a God called judge, or a woman of greater than ordinary faith (remember that Barak is the one, not Deborah, accounted by God to have been the vessel of faith in Hebrews 11). Further, her being called a “prophetess” meant nothing more than that she was married to a prophet.
4. Righteous Judgement”
John 7:24 Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgement.
1 Corinthians 2:15 But he that is spritual judgeth all things yet he himself is judged of no man.
Matthew 17:5 …This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased; hear ye Him!
1 Corinthians 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
1 Timothy 2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, not usurp authority over the man but to be in silence.
5. Women authorized of God to teach:
Titus 2:4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husband, to love their children.
Titus 2:5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands that the wod of God be not blasphemed.
6. The Jezebel Conspiracy:
Revelation 2:20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which “calleth herself a prophetess”, to “teach” and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
In the love of the True and Living Jesus,
Deb
wow, that was awesome sister. words of wisdom presented with love i do believe.
You know what? I can sum it all up right here and right now Melvin? You have no accurate interpretation of the scriptures of the Lord because Mary was the very first woman preacher in the word of the Lord.
You can try to give any kind of scripture to support what you are trying to say about God not allowing women to preach and Pastor a ministry because I was the member of a church for over 9 years and sat under a very anointed and dynamic woman of God who knew excactly what she was talking about, and because of how the Lord has used her, my knowledge of the Lord’s word has tremendously increased.
For you to come up in here at this website and say that God didn’t call women to be Pastors or preachers means that you have just denied the power of God and you are saying that he dosn’r know what He’s doing. You have a lot of nerve. (Melvins Note: Actually all this doesn’t mean God doesn’t know what He’s doing. It means you don’t know what you’re talking about. )
And actually, I think that Apostle Pebbales is dong a great job down at J. City of Praise.
You know you are so very clearly mistaken because you know I just hit a nerve in the spirit. Don’t get mad at me because you can’t interpet the scriptures correctly, and you know IF women can’t be Pastors why is God’s favor on their ministry then you tell me that and guess what some of them are not even PIMPETS and the favor of God is still upon their ministry.
Dear “Yes I Do”:
Please tell me what you mean by “God’s Favor?” If you mean because Paula White and Juanita Bynum have “Large” crowds at their speaking engagements, that is not the “Biblical definition” of “God’s Favor.” Remember, Jim Jones had a “Large” following; Rev. Myun Son Moon has a “Large” following, as well as many other cult leaders. Again, what do YOU mean by “God’s Favor?”
BlackTheologian
Yes I Do said:
And how do you know what God is capabke odoing anyway?
becae you sho aint his messenger. And that I do know
And, if they don’t tell people who they are ,why does it matter to you anyway ESPECIALLY if you declare that you are a Christian. and guess what whatever God has blessd them with, YOU and no other church folk,or any DEMON in HELL! can do a nything to stop God from blessing them.
Then Yes I Do said:
You know you need a life and you need one real quick because all of this jesouslyand bitterness that you have about these people isn’t going to solve anything and you most certainly know that.
Then Yes I Do said:
Hey melvin you can call me anything you want because if you and all the other haters don’t straightnen up, then you won’t be in the pimp line on judgement day, but in the SUPERSPIRITUAL ETERNALLY STUPID LOOKING CHURCHFOLK line on your way to HELL your own self. And another thing I know I’m not a demon because I keep up with my own business and try to make sure that GOD works on me and cleans all of the mess out of me. And don’t try to get all caught up in Pastor bryant’s life and any other person.See that’s what you’re doing you’re just caught all up in they’re bussiness. you just keep on examining yourself.
I also know who IAM as well so I don’t know who you call yourself talking about who you’re going to expose.
And finally, Yes I Do said:
as a matter of fact this also goes to albert
And I believe that last incomprehensible statement is the last Yes I Do gets to make. No more posts for you!!!
Sister the mere fact that you are getting angry is a clear indication that you have some doubts. You can argue with everyone on this site but you can not argue with the word of God. It is hard to digest but the word does make some clear statementa about this matter.
Brother Melvin and the others has not defamed your pastor he just told you to take a good look at the inerrant word of God. I know it is hard to take but look at it.
Man is carnal and prone to make mistakes but the read the word yourself with a clear mind forgetting what you what wer taught but focusing on the word.
Come now and let us reason together:
According to scripture:
1 Timothy 2:12 But I suffer “not” a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
Question: How may/can a woman possibly be a Pastor when she is forbidden to teach or to have authority over a man?
Mary didn’t Pastor, nor did she usurp authority over these men of God, and neither was she chosen by the Lord Jesus to be an Apostle.
Matthew 28:10 - go tell my brethren that they go into Galilee, and their shall they see me.
Mark 16:9 - Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared to Mary Magdalene …
Mark 16:10 - And she went and told them that had been with him, as they mourned and wept.
Also Study: Luke 24:4-10
John 20:17 - Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not ye ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
John 20:18 - Mary Magadalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the Lord, and that he had spoken these things unto her.
Question: How does a woman “Bishop, Pastor, or Elder” become the husband of one wife?
1 Timothy 3:2 - A bishop then must be blameless, the “husband of one wife”, vigilant, sober, of good behavior, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
Titus 1:6 - If any be blamele