You may or may not have heard of Donald Hilliard. He has been developing for at least the last fifteen years. I first ran across him at First Baptist Church of Glenarden on the
Now that he’s a bishop at the
Here’s what Donnie H. says about “mentoring“.
“This is where visions become reality!” says Hilliard. “Even the most successful people in the world have mentors and coaches from Tiger Woods, Michael Jordan, Oprah Winfrey and Ken Chenault to Debra Lee, Melody Hobson, Dick Parsons and Kevin Liles. They are all incredibly accomplished people. Each of them have mentors who guided and helped navigate them to the next level in business and other areas of their lives. It’s not always easy to find someone who is willing to make the commitment to be a mentor. My heart leads me to share the gift of vision that GOD has given to me with anyone who desires to establish a secure course in their business and personal lives.”
Maybe I’m not getting it. But it seems to me folks who claim to be Christian leaders (you know, the bishop thing) would be more Christ-centric. But if you take a look at the original ad, you notice an interesting thing. There is no mention of God. There is, however, a big appeal to “ME”.
First, a triple of questions:
1. How many of you believe mentoring can be done in a week end? Correct me if I’m wrong, but it seems to me mentoring is a years long process. It’s something you accomplish over a period of years as you are involved in another person’s life. You could even say it’s a little like discipling. Even T. Dexter knows this. He has a long term mentoring relationship with John K. Jenkins.
2. Do any of you really believe that by sending this pimp $175 and listening to him and several other folks speak for a week-end I’ll be mentored? I doubt it. The only things I’ll have accomplished at the end of the weekend will be the loss of $175 and the weekend. Let’s ay one hundred people show up for the seminar. Are all one hundred going to be mentored by him? Or let’s say twenty show up this time and eighty over the previous three seminars. Again, is he going to mentor all one hundred of these dudes and dudettes?
Third question: What is vision casting? I guess it sounds pretty good, but so does most of the techno-babble they spout on Star Trek: The Next Generation. If you’ve watched ST:TNG even a couple of times, you’ve heard Geordi or Data explain to the Captain Picard that the ship is a sitting duck because the Ion Flux Modulator is stuck in the manual position, or the High Energy Tachyon Conduit has developed a leak in the Magnetic Link Collimator.
It’s the same thing with these people. They put together a bunch of words until they come up with something that sounds impressive, even if it doesn’t mean anything at all. In this case they settled on the words “Vision Casting.” Yes, it’s the name of his company, but the combinations of words don’t mean anything as far as I can tell. Maybe one of you Hilliard drones can help me out here. I used to locate people who had liens against them and collect on them for the owners of the liens and judgments. My company was called Wolf Recoveries. The name meant something.
Oh, and of course it’s not enough for this to be Vision Casting weekend. The one they held in
I’m still trying to figure out if this is a religious event or a secular one. In the item I refer to by hypertext, Donnie H. mentions God. But on the e-flyer, there is nothing but an emphasis on “me”, an experience, and promises of super vision casting.
You know, I’m becoming more and more convinced that I am in the wrong business. I mean, only in pastoring a bunch of sheeple can you go from being a humble shepherd to being the bishop of a big, multi-thousand member church, a professional mentor, and an executive coach, able to charge people nearly two hundred dollars a pop so they can learn how to cast visions. Maybe I should go to that International Friends place, buy my doctorate and start making a few bucks.
Firstly, The Holy Spirit is my life coach and HIS manual is the scriptures.
This vision casting concept is a worldly thing, in my opinion. It’s not that people don’t need to have mentors or disciplers, (to be biblical) but the idea that sitting under one who has a particular “vision” is going to flow down into your ife is a misapplication of scriptural examples of dicipleship. These gullible pastors flock to these men NOT because they see them as godly, humble, dedicated servants. Most of them attend these meeting as an attempt to recreate a similar growth pattern, money influx, building program or personal wealth as the one they pay to see. These men want to change the focus of pastor as sheperd and elder of GOD’s people to visionary and CEO of a corporation that holds religious services on Sundays.
“But LORD, we did many great things in your name”…..
“Depart from me, I never knew you.”
This kind of thing is a money mess. YOu have to pay to be “Under their covering” and then they charge you to come to you to “serve” your congragation; and I don’t mean a love offering or covering of expenses either. Its a scam with a spiritual facade on it.
I been under this type of leadership for about 8 years or more and now my journey have become so confuse. I holding on. (MN: I suggest you leave rather than hold on. Go find a healthy church. Soon. ) For the last two years God have shown me the inward of this type of leadership and now everyone know i know about this and everyone locally is talking about me. Assuming I am wrong. I want to make people so aware of this type of leadership is so dangerous to your life.. Please listen..
You know in 1 Peter 5, Peter says:
5:1 So I exhort the elders among you, as a fellow elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, as well as a partaker in the glory that is going to be revealed: 2 shepherd the flock of God that is among you, exercising oversight, not under compulsion, but willingly, as God would have you; not for shameful gain, but eagerly; 3 not domineering over those in your charge, but being examples to the flock.
I want to focus on the not for “shameful gain”. It is funny how many today who are in leadership use their position for gain. Rather that is to get a mid-level salary like many pastors today, or to write books (not all write books for gain) or the more extreme case to get rich.
You know what is sad. These men and women say they have a gift from God. Which would mean this gift is freely given by God. But in turn we use the very thing that was free for gain. And this doesn’t just go for these extreme types but for many. There are many “good” theologians who charge for speaking engagments and other such works. They charge to download sermons and to host conferences. If you put them in your home versus a Hotel then they would be irate! Once again I am not talking the Jakes here but those widely applauded by conservative evangelicalism.
I think these brothers just take the same example to the extreme (not brothers as in brothers of the faith, though he may be). Some guys won’t speak for less than a certain dollar amount and once again I am talking of the solid ones here. Others charge big fees to come to their conferences and speaking engagements.
I wonder how much Peter charged to speak at the Pentecost Conference, or Paul when he didn’t just deliver a one day conference this brother did an all day conference one dude even fell asleep. It is funny to see Paul working with his own hands to do the same thing many charge for today. Better yet, I wonder what it cost the Philippians, Ephesians, Colossains, Thessolonians, and even those who received the letter to the Hebrews? Now that is life coaching there! Nothing gets better than that. This is just another sad case of marketing christianity and the consumption that follows.
As those who proclaim the Good News and those who are appointed to oversee, as Jesus said “freely you have received so freely you give” (or without pay in some translations). You see if our message is to help, heal, and restore as we have been given “grace upon grace” lets give graciously not expecting anything in return. Lets even be as bold as Paul and say “we worked night and day, not to be a burden to anyone”! Lets raise our own funds, with our own hands, and give freely as we have been given freely. How revolutionary would that be?
Well said B&R!!
B&R,
Good commentary. In your opinion (and this is for every one), where do you draw the line on this issue? Is it ever acceptable for a Christian to charge to speak? And where you have a Christian author, where is the line to draw to differentiate him from a prophet for profit? In the case of an author, is it acceptable for him to put a price on his publication (book or magazine)? And I’m thinking in terms of a self-published author of Christian literature/material.
Peace and blessings
Hey Tee Jay,
My answer is no. You never charge for what you have received freely. Never, ever. I think if someone invited you they should at lest cover the cost and an offering would be nice but it should never be expected. We are not like the world friend. Our reward is in heaven. It seems to me that Paul even paid to preach the Gospel (check out Acts 19:9).
As it relates to book, I believe those things are extra curriculum. Thus you can charge if you like (especially for publication and to cover cost such as research, paying editors, artwork for the covers, and some reimbursement of money loss to produce such material). These books cost a lot to publish. But if you go to http://www.desiringgod.org you will see that Piper has most of his books free in PDF format. His study guides on a lot of his works are also free. But Piper is a unique charachter indeed.
I think if the information is that important and is that life transforming then make it available for free and then also publish for cost. So those who can afford it can bless you for your time and effort and those who can’t can still be blessed by good sound theological works. Many ministries allow you to make a donation if you can’t afford the retail cost (www.ccwtoday.org and http://www.desiringgod.org)
So I believe the bible is clear when Jesus says “freely you receive so freely you give” and I also belive that we should provide for the needs of those preach the Gospel, but to “charge” is outrageous and for sure the Gospel which is free becomes profit which is antithetical to the scriptures.
I’m not trying to offend anyone, but man, certain christian folks have to get a grip on things, and stop trying to impress others and themselves with their supposed spiritual insight and enlightenment on certain non-doctrinal issues.
There’s nothing wrong with someone charging a fee for their books, because their books, unlike epistles/scriptures/LETTERS TO CHURCHES, aren’t so sacred to where it needs to be disseminated to the church without charge.
In other words, the books these folks are writing, despite being biblically oriented, isn’t comparable to the word of God, despite the insight, therefore it’s not bringing in any new revelation from God, or erecting doctrinal foundations which should be distributed freely.
Not only that, Paul was single, and from all appearances, had no children, but he did have a trade. There’s nothing wrong with Paul working with his own hands to provide for himself as best as possible, but to compare this to what christian authors ought to do today, in this economy, when it comes to peddling their books, is stretching it a bit.
Paul didn’t have to worry about paying rent, paying a mortgage, purchasing gas, paying utility bills, etc.-SO WHERE DO FOLKS COME OFF WITH THIS SELF-RIGTHEOUS STUFF?
Again, christian books, aren’t the same as holy scripture. Besides, as was stated before, those epistles were LETTERS TO CHURCHES! You don’t charge on letters being sent out and read.
It’s like me writing a letter to a church, only for that letter to be copy/duplicated/faxed and sent to another church for their edification. What? I am to charge folks for duplicating my letter, so that it can be sent out throughout a particular province or territory.
So again, with the fear of sounding redundant- comparing the epistles/scripture/letters to the churches, isn’t the same as writing a christian themed book, despite the similiarities one may think is there.
At times, folks can get so overly righteous to where they begin to beat folks over the head with scripture, when it’s not necessary.
Did anyone say that an author “couldn’t” charge a fee for a book? Maybe I missed something. But I have been following this thread and I don’t see anyone saying such a thing. Who exactly are you responding to Seeker?
Hey Seeker after I posted this, I realized that you may have been right and if anythign I wrote came off the way Seeker conveyed I am very sorry I didn’t mean to sound self-righteous. I got off on a hobby horse and a sore spot for me in a very capitalistic movement within the Church of God.
I’m responding to this statement of yours, combined with other statements from others on this thread, that I’m beginning to hear quite frequently from certain christians, who claim that attaching a fee on a christian themed book, is somehow insalubrious:
“I think if the information is that important and is that life transforming then make it available for free and then also publish for cost.”
(MN: Wow! Did you catch the word Seekerman used? INSALUBRIOUS. Seekerman, are you going to come to this site, drop a word like that on us, and not tell the people what it means? Come on!! )
B&R said:
“Hey Seeker after I posted this, I realized that you may have been right and if anythign I wrote came off the way Seeker conveyed I am very sorry I didn’t mean to sound self-righteous. I got off on a hobby horse and a sore spot for me in a very capitalistic movement within the Church of God.”
My response:
No problem, for in the end, none of us are perfect, including myself. Not only that, steel sharpens steel, and there are times when my steel needs to be edged a bit…
I was considering visiting New Light Christian Center where IV Hilliard is the Pastor. I know they sell books, dvd’s, and cd’s. Any thoughts on this church? Any members out there?
LAinHouston,
Thanks for stopping by!!! I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that because you are relatively new to this site that you didn’t catch the link marked “The Hilliards” on the right side of this page. If you click on it, you will find extensive writings (and comments) concerning I.V as well as his wife. You may be hard pressed to find any members of New Light among those who regularly contribute to this site. I think when you read the information written on the Hilliards you will know why that is. Oh, but if you do decide to go, ask I.V if I can use his private helicopter so me and my wife can see the city like he sees it. On second thought, never mind. I’m sure he’s using it for more important “ministry” purposes…
WOW! Thanks for the advice. After reading comments made about them….makes me want to reconsider. I wonder if you have to provide proof of income for admission (lol).
(MN: That’s what I’m talkin’ about! LAinHouston is reconsidering. He/She even took a swipe at the “ministry.” Again, it’s not about getting the pimps to stop their pimpery. It’s about warning the sheeple away from the wolves. And, of course, pressuring you people to contribute to the “Buy Melvin an SR22 Before the End of the Year” fund. All love offerings, freewill offerings, and left-over tithes are welcomed. We only have five months left. And you want to go into the new year with a blessing. Right? There’s no better way to do that than to bless the Mand of Gawd [that would be me] before the end of the year. )
Hey LA there are a few good churches in Houston of men I have talked with or know.
1. http://www.jirehbiblechurch.org/
2. http://www.sovereigngracehouston.org/
Mr. Woods (not me) who helps at http://www.standupministry.com happens to belong to Jireh
and the second is a ministry of http://www.sovereigngraceministries.org Both are multi-cultural with African American and non African American leaders.
Thanks! I’ll check out the sites.
tee jay,
For the part of your question that deals with Christians speaking, Lionel spoke a bit about it over at Phil’s Theology Today blog. You can view his perspective and many others here:
http://phillyflash.wordpress.com/2008/06/18/should-the-pastor-get-paid/
Also, if you snoop around his site a bit, you could probably find some places where he gives more detail to his position.
blackandreformedministries.com
As for me, I will withold my comments and allow others to chime in if they see fit…Not that I don’t want to answer the question, but as we’ve seen in the thread that was just closed, when people have different views on certain matters, things can get pretty lengthy pretty quick, and I’m sure someone else will say something similar to what I would have expressed at some point in time…Enjoy…
Solus Christus,
R4C
Well said B&R and Ready.
The speaking issue was easy to digest (if I was an in demand speaker, it’s hard to imagine charging a fee), but the publishing issue is one to chew on since you correctly noted the production costs.
I’m thinking that ultimately any revenue that comes in from something like a book should probably be reinvested in the publishing company or in some type of evangelistic ministry, as opposed to extravagant spending. This is just my point of view though.
Peace and blessings.
So what does the person who writes for a living do? Part of the cost of the book is the food and shelter he had to provide his family while he wrote the book.
The workman is worthy of his hire, but too many become worthless hirelings.
To charge a fee to preach the Gospel is an outrage. And,like B&R, I love John Piper’s approach with his books.
Preachers have to eat too, and God wants them to have provision……. but it’s when they begin dining on the sheep that it crosses the line.
How come I have to live by faith, but they won’t preach for less than a certain dollar amount?? Why don’t they just obey the Great Commission and BELIEVE GOD to meet their needs in an uncoerced offering ??
MJ,
I’m thinking he certainly has a right to pay rent and eat and even go to a movie and own a car. That’s not unreasonable. Hypothetically and to the very extreme, what if he was a Bible translator or transcriber (a daunting task I would imagine). Could and should he earn a living from that?
After all, I’m sure that Theology instructors get paid to teach a class (and rightfully so), which entails much speaking.
I’ve chewed on it and I’m still to chewing on it. A Christian writer who makes his living by writing
At the same time, what if someone makes their living as a speaker (which is what many of the profiled pimps do)
Again, where’s the line to be drawn?
Different category Melvin. Just like a motivation speaker should get paid to motivationally speak. Put a preacher is not a motivational speaker (well that could be disputed). What is the person writing about exactly? The Gospel? Did Paul get paid to write the epistles? He was definitely writing. What about Peter, John and others. To use the Gospel to write for money is very dangerous grounds. I could go as far as to say what about one who evangelizes? Should he get paid if he is a full-time evangelist? It seems to me that most of the men in the New Testament had jobs. They didn’t make 6 figure incomes (whatever is the equivalent) preaching the good news. Today because of the mass marketing of the Christian Faith everyone is doing the exact opposite. They are getting paid off of the Gospel. It isn’t much different than Jakes using his position to write weight loss books (MN: Or weightless books for that matter ), cook books, man books, woman thou art loosed books, movies, plays, music CD’s. That brother is pimping the Gospel Melvin. It wouldn’t be much different that someone who “writes” for living. Off of the Gospel. If that is the case I should sale insurance because of my influence off of the Gospel or be a car salesmen and use the gospel as a way to sell more cars. I can keep going but I think you know where I am headed.
Many man and women are getting rich off of the Gospel. Jesus gave it freely and didn’t charge a dime to lay down His life. Many today are using His words to build lucrative lifestyles. Just my opinion but I think we are moving into dangerous territory.
LOL!!!!
off the subject, but I just wanted to know if Melvin knew, that Fred Price was affirmed an “Apostle” last friday 7/25/2008. Yep he is now Dr. Fredrick K.C. Price Apostle of Faith.
You don’t charge, but there are some expenses with anything you do, and we seem to forget that when it comes to church. I know Bishop Hilliard and as much as you want to make him out to be a pimp, he is one of the most generous people there are. (MN: He can afford to be generous. Most people are with other folks’ money. A basic Machiavellian principle. ) He has no contract, he preaches for who ever and has always pulled people up from the ranks. (MN: According to the flyer, he also charges $175 per person to do that pulling. ) How can the owner of this site be such a good christian and always bad mouthing, gossiping and promoting seperation in the church. Why not pray for what you think is wrong. The bible says we all including you think we are right in our own eyes.
Just remember that the whole bible is right and every scripture is true even the ones you choose not to adhere to yourself.
Just like you go to work and expect to be able to take care of your family so do these people. (MN: Sure. But the good pastor of First Baptist Church of Glenarden on the Kettering, and those like him seem to prosper tremendously at the expense of the sheeple around them. It’s thet “tremendously” part I suspect many of us have such a problem with. ) Their children are in college, highschool, need clothes, like electronics and they need to provide, so he created a seminar to help people develop there vision…… You complain they take too much from the church so now you are complaining they are taking much from the world too???????
Remember the disciples had GOOD jobs!!!!!!!
(MN: They may have had good jobs. But I can guarantee you they didn’t make money off of Christianity. )
UMMMMMMM……what “good jobs” did the disciples have?? Have you seen their W2s??
Fishermen. A tax collector. A political revolutionary. All led by a carpenter.
Hey, by any chance did the same guy who told you they were well off tell you that you were a god too??
uh, melville been wanting to know for a while, what is a kettering? glenarden on the kettering.
mrs. mav, I like to pretend that Kettering is the name of a stream that runs next to the Mausoleum. Museum and memorial. Actually, it’s just the name of census designated place (CDP) that the church is built in.
oh goody, now i can finally get some sleep.
I came to the conclusion that if a “speaker” is charging exhorberant fees for theatrics, then it is not worth my time, effort, energy or money to even CONSIDER going.
B&R and saintjames, you two have given en excellent assessment of the BS of what has and is passing for “ministry.” The phenomena of having these overly suited and coifed people command four and five figures to “give you the Word of God” is hardly amusing, given the amount of financial and spiritual turmoil going on around us. Seriously, the adherents need to wake up!!!
You know Melvin, I got the email “inviting me to this historic event” here in the ATL last weekend (I guess my name and email address are still on some Word of Faith mailing list from my “dark past”) and I laughed when I first saw it. I remember when Donnie was chasing behind Fast Eddie, so I’m not surprised to see this move afoot.
Plus Paula White, T Dexter and other hucksters have made it OK to pimp the gospel as nothing more than a trinket, so this is a logical move in their minds.
Hello N’Catina!!!! Haven’t heard from you in a long time…Good post, by the way…
Solus Christus,
R4C
Thanks…I’ve been around; I haven’t gone anywhere.
Ultimately, this demonstrates how low the pimps view the high calling of the ministry. “Ministry doesn’t make so I’ll do something extra!” - despicable!!!
“Vision Casting” ? That sounds strangely akin to astral plane projection, which is a witchcraft technique. Just one more thing to be leary of.
Its funny how the Lord can speak about things with such pin-point accuracy…lol…ABSOLUTELY AMAZING!
Jeremiah 23:25-40
“25 I have heard what the prophets have said, that prophesy lies in my name, saying, I have dreamed, I have dreamed.
26 How long shall this be in the heart of the prophets that prophesy lies, even the prophets of the deceit of their own heart?
27 that think to cause my people to forget my name by their dreams which they tell every man to his neighbor, as their fathers forgat my name for Baal.
28 The prophet that hath a dream, let him tell a dream; and he that hath my word, let him speak my word faithfully. What is the straw to the wheat? saith Jehovah.
29 Is not my word like fire? saith Jehovah; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?
30 Therefore, behold, I am against the prophets, saith Jehovah, that steal my words every one from his neighbor.
31 Behold, I am against the prophets, saith Jehovah, that use their tongues, and say, He saith.
32 Behold, I am against them that prophesy lying dreams, saith Jehovah, and do tell them, and cause my people to err by their lies, and by their vain boasting: yet I sent them not, nor commanded them; neither do they profit this people at all, saith Jehovah.
33 And when this people, or the prophet, or a priest, shall ask thee, saying, What is the burden of Jehovah? then shalt thou say unto them, What burden! I will cast you off, saith Jehovah.
34 And as for the prophet, and the priest, and the people, that shall say, The burden of Jehovah, I will even punish that man and his house.
35 Thus shall ye say every one to his neighbor, and every one to his brother, What hath Jehovah answered? and, What hath Jehovah spoken?
36 And the burden of Jehovah shall ye mention no more: for every man’s own word shall be his burden; for ye have perverted the words of the living God, of Jehovah of hosts our God.
37 Thus shalt thou say to the prophet, What hath Jehovah answered thee? and, What hath Jehovah spoken?
38 But if ye say, The burden of Jehovah; therefore thus saith Jehovah: Because ye say this word, The burden of Jehovah, and I have sent unto you, saying, Ye shall not say, The burden of Jehovah;
39 therefore, behold, I will utterly forget you, and I will cast you off, and the city that I gave unto you and to your fathers, away from my presence:
40 and I will bring an everlasting reproach upon you, and a perpetual shame, which shall not be forgotten.”
Like I always say “Feed the flock, not on the flock!” Act 20:28-31 is soooo relevant. Do none of them want the crown of glory when the Chief Shepherd puts in his appearance? 1 Pe 5:2-4
It would seem that they do not want the crown of glory then, but rather lucre now.
Like Benny Hinn says, “I don’t need streets of gold in heaven, I need the gold HERE!!”
I’m in the wrong business! LOL… Melvin… I’m starting a website for my new business called “Mond of Gawd Vision Unlimited!” Do you want to take the limits off of your life and reap a harvest that you didn’t sow? Simply send me a money order for $500 and the Mond of Gawd (me) will show you how!
Go to MondofGawdVisionUnlimited.com and click on the link, “I’m an idiot” to give me your money.
In all seriousness, I don’t even feel bad for the people who want to pay this clown to “coach” them. If he’s God’s anointed vessel, why not give them what God is giving Him for free?
“Freely you have received, freely give” kinda rings a bell. *shrugs* ah well.
mondofgawd? must be jamaican.
What almost made me fall over laughing was what one actually gets for his $175.00. A two-hour networking reception and art show? A four-hour mentoring session and breakfast? A two-hour praise and worship service? That’s it? This guy has to be kidding.
Then again, no, he doesn’t. He’ll probably make a mint off of this foolishness.
(MN: By the way - the artwork is stuff he drew. )
MN: By the way - the artwork is stuff he drew.
How do I make a ROFL head? That is sad.
Hmmm…..Let’s see $175.00 for 4 hours plus a meal which is roughly $43.85 per hour which if 10 people showed up would be $438.50 per hour not counting the cost of the venue. This guy probably already has a figure in mind that he has to make to break even then there would be “love” offerings, book sales, CD/DVD sales, special one-on-one mentor by mail offers…etc. One could make quite a haul. Sounds VERY corporate to me.
The church I am currently attending has this “Vision-Casting” nonsense where you envision a preferable future - I picture myself as EMPEROR of the GALAXY bwah-ha-haaaa!!! - and basically ignore your not so preferable present. It’s a wholesale mutilation of Proverbs 29:18. That’s the scripture that is used where I attend.
I guess I’m not smart enough to be a life coach. I was always taught that I should be a servant not a coach. I wonder which is better. I mean after all, wasnt it Jesus who said that he who desires to be great must first be a servant.
I ran a non profit organization at one time that specialized in mentoring partnerships between youth and professional adults. Those relationships lasted at least one year and was monitored on a monthly basis to follow the mutual development of both parties. I only asked the adults who wanted to participate to have a stated purpose and a criminal background check.
BY the way, I attended the National Mentoring Partnership Conference once the fee they charged was worth every cent plus the people doing the workshops weren’t life coaches or professional mentors or any of that crap.
Is that guy related to IV and Bridget Hilliard?
(MN: No. He just has that same Used Car Salesman look. )
LOL! @ Mel,
“No. He just has that same Used Car Salesman look”
The first thing that went through my head while looking at his pic was, ” Can I interest you in a Buick today?”
What wit and humor. And to think that the sheeple accuse you of being mean. Oh how so many people just don’t understand satire.
Speaking of satire and wit, Mel how did you learn your craft? No I’m serious. Most people can’t express them self like that anymore. Even worse, people who accuse you of being demeaning miss the whole point. It literally goes right over their heads. Sadly, you can’t explain satire. Once you attempt to explain it to someone it loses it’s satirical value.
Can’t wait to hear your response!
Kyle
(MN: Thanks Kyle. But other than the fact that I grew up on the comedians of the sixties [Johnny Carson, The Smothers Brothers, Don Rickles and the rest] I can’t say there was anything special. )
Kyle, as to satire: I have noticed that I use it when the absurdity of some issue is so over the top, and puts you into such a state of hyper-incredulity that there is no reasoning left about the matter.
Sometimes, though, when someone is asking honest questions; for them, you gently walk them through the issue. Who knows, repentance may be close at hand for them.
Stan,
I don’t disagree. My thrust of my response was that many who read Melvin’s posts fail to grasp the meaning behind the creative writing. Don’t take this the wrong way but Satire was never meant for the “dolt” to understand it. It is usually way over their head.
However, people honestly asking questions in regards to the Prosperity Gospel is entirely different. Of course we should be able to point out and explain to them the errors of this doctrine.
Kyle
Hi Kyle. I understand what you’re saying. It is true that not everyone gets satire. That is the risk any satirist takes.
Yet, we should not dumb down our skills to appeal to the lowest average of hearers.
God did not have the Bible written always in plain language, although its basic themes are plain for all readers. However, in many places, it employs many idioms, parables, figures of speech, unfamiliar terms and complex thought patterns that can confuse many, even learned, bible students. The study of the bible forces us to learn, to rise above our “dolthood.” It “makes wise the simple” and through it, we gain “more understanding than our teachers.”
In other words, if a Christian applies himself to the study of the Word, he may very well learn to get human satire too.
Mel,
Would you place Jack Leonard in that group???…
http://www.jackeleonard.net/media_recordings.htm
(MN: Definitely. And Red Skelton, Phil Silvers, Jack Benny, and a host of others too numerous to mention. Jack Benny is my absolute favorite. His timing was absolutely exquisite. )
LOVE Jack Benny!! Hey Mel, a bunch of stuff from Benny just went Public Domain. You can watch them for free here, or legally download them. Enjoy my friend!!
http://www.archive.org/search.php?query=jack%20benny
(MN: OMG!! I just found hog heaven. Can you put these things in an IPOD? If so, I Just figured out how I’m gonna fill the other 50 gig of space. God bless you GaryV, despite what people say about you!! )
They certainly CAN be put on an iPod. Simply right click on the MPEG link to the left of the screen (higher number=better resolution), hit “save as” and send it to your desktop. It will deliver Jack’s comedic genius in the required Quicktime MP4 format, which you then drag and drop into the “Movies” section of your iPod.
For those that are not already in MP4, I can direct you to a terrific new format converter that transforms everything from DIVX to Flash into iPod compatible MP4.
Give me a phone call if you need help with it.
PS, you can burn it to DVD as well for use at home, or I can show you how to tape it off your TV using your iPod as a tuner so you can record it to VHS.
You know, this may be very wrong, but the biggest thing that really, really stood out to me in this article was…man, that guy has a HUGE forehead! That’s a fivehead! (sorry)
LOL……I was WAITING for someone else to say it first! Thank you!
Say man, you remember what happened to those young boys when they mocked the prophet Elisha, because of his exposed head?
In other words, “Keepeth thy mouths off the prophets heads, for contained therein is the wisdom of de Lawd.”
Then he is wise beyond everyone’s years. (Ok, I’m going straight to hell, aren’t I?)
In all truthfulness, part of this guy’s fo’ head problems, is directly related to whomever’s cutting his hair. Some barbers feel that they have to be so technical and according to the book, when it comes edging, fading, and putting in lines, to where they ignore the aesthetics of a persons face and structure.
In other words, the person cutting this man’s hair is equivalent to a pharisee, who go according to the letter of the law, and not the spirit of the law.
You see, how I tied this back into biblical relevancy? LOL!
Same thing works for women; trust me. Not every female can pull off a Toni Braxton cut (think ’90s) or have 30 inches of weave hanging from her head. I won’t attempt either.
For guys, not all can shave their head bald. Smooth, shiny bullets are for guns, not guys’ heads!
If one is going to seek the services of a barber of beautician, PLEASE do your homework?? Find someone that operates with a degree of common sense when it comes to a style for an individual head. Styling magazines can’t do that.
Seekerman,
Are you advocating for a Damascus Road experience for that barber? Are you saying he needs Jesus?
Just as long as he doesn’t have this experience, and becomes blind, while cutting someone’s hair.
It would not only be awkward for the person receiving the cut, but for the barber as well, as he (the barber) tries to explain to the customer, his newly received bout with blindness, and how he must be taken to a street called “Strait.”
Shalom,
I’m hearing a lot of “Christians” claiming to be going through a season and that G-D deals in seasons, particularly from Charismatics. The quote without reference and was wondering if anyone knew of the Chapter/verse used by televangelist as supporting evidence?
May His Kingdom Come,
Avishalom
Probably 2Ti 4:2 given the way they distort scripture.
“Feed the flock, not on the flock.”
Good luck with that, okay?
His forehead is like that because so many Men-O-Gawd slapped him there passing on the Pimp Anointing.
GaryV,
That’s too small to be a Forehead. Where I come from a cranium of that size is called a Morehead.
That man has a morehead. LOL!
Kyle
(MN: Okay people - focus on the issues [Morehead - that's a hoot! But you didn't hear me say that]. )
Goodness……….from swimwear to earrings to tattoos to foreheads in consecutive postings. We’ve gone from Pulpit Pimps to Trivial Pursuit-Pimp Edition.
Morehead……….
:lol:
I didn’t know that Men-O-Gawd were subject to getting pimp-slapped. Must be an executive-type. :lol Morehead…. :lol
I confess. I am guilty. After trying to generate exquisite scriptural verses and to provide sound reason and judgment to the issue at hand…I am a total failure.
Why…? My confession and please treat me as weak and of no consequence…but this man’s forehead is incredulous! It stifles serious discourse and causes ones eyes to involuntarily return again and again to that
cinnamon dome. That forehead cries out to be rubbed down with floor wax and to be buffed.
(MN: See? You people aren’t really saved. ‘Cause if you were, you wouldn’t make fun of the poor man. Or you would at least help the Mand of Gawd by paying for one waxing and buffing.
Now back to the issue at hand - executive pimping. )
Melvin,
I can’t let this one go bro. Can you imagine the Pastor who had to lay hands on him?
“Like a child tryin to palm a basketball”
Kyle
Guys LOL PLEEEASE LOL STOOOPPP LOL LOL ROFL. Help! I’m having problems breathing. Stop ! Pleeeeaasse Morehead! LOL LOL. Palming a basketball?? LOL!
Probably can’t get a hat to fit so he’ll probably have to use only turbans. Ok sorry I’ll behave.
On another note I would like to recommend a book called the Long Emergency by James Howard Kunstler. Speaking about what possibly happens when oil runs out. For me its the secular identifying what the bible has been speaking about for some time. Very interesting reading.
I think the conversation about this man’s forehead violates both Colossians 3:12-17 and Ephesians 4:29-32. Brothers, if this man was to hear this I don’t think it would give grace to him and I definitely don’t see how this builds up the body. Not only that others participate in this by reading it. I know we are much more mature than this. It is funny we will talk about his teaching and then come and belittle him by his physical presence.
(MN: You’re probably right. Okay people, you heard the man. Straighten up and fly right! )
While to some degree I disagree with the context or should I say given the context of the scripture quoted I disagree, but I understand what you are saying and I stand duly chastised. Point taken and I’m done.
“Feed the flock, not on the flock.”
Really Nigel? Please explain. It is funny to disagree with the context. Does anyone else disagree? What exactly did Paul mean?
Bro. Lionel,
I fully agree with you on this one. Mocking the man’s head [no matter how gratifying to the flesh it is] is not being objective regarding how this dude is pimping the faith!
We should be spending this time mocking his blasphemous doctrine - not the size of his cranium. I’m 17, y’all - don’t set me a bad example…
(MN: IndyCon, before you give too much more time to “ISA”, please notice that he is doing a very poor job of presenting a hyper-preterist argument while trying to avoid appearing to present a hyper-preterist argument. Additionally, you should know that the writer is actually msamu, masquerading as a writer named Isa.
msamu, I really am disappointed in you. Doing this makes it very difficult to have a meaningful discussion. And given that you know this (I believe you were here when GDub did the very same thing, I’m going to have to banish you from the site for at least a couple of months. If you are going to try to present hyper-preterism as a reasonable position, at least be man enough to present it as a hyper-preterist. See you in a couple of months. )
To Independent Conservative
It seems Adam’s physical death was inevitable? (Gen 3:19).
If I understand correctly, Adam’s spiritual death happened the very day he sinned, Adam’s willful act of disobedience (sin) separated him from a spiritual life with God the Father? Here’s where I get confused, if Adam’s sin had nothing to do with physical death, (Adam was created mortal thus he would physically die anyway), and Christ as the second Adam (spiritual), was sent to reconcile man back to spiritual life and not a physical life with God why are we looking for a physical resurrection. Scripture states, It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body; why are we looking for the resurrection of a physical body? Scripture says; that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; if Adam’s death was spiritual, Christ came to reconcile man back to God the Father raising mankind from the dead (spiritually the death Adam suffered). Since Adam’s death was not physical, wouldn’t the resurrection be spiritual? 1Cor 15:44. My pastor will not discuss this with me any more, so I’m reaching out. Prov 4:7
This is a horrible twisting of scripture. You see if this man was a prophet Melvin I would stone him! LOL!!! I will answer your question.
1. We see in this covenenat given to Adam that both spiritual and physical death would have occured if God did not intervene with a sacrficie (we notice that sacrfices for sin become the norm check out what Noah did upon landing on dry ground). Now on to the other point.
We see in Romans 8 that even the creation has been set to bondage so what type of redemption our they looking for? Is a tree a spritual being? What about the ground, the seas? You see they are also waiting the redemption of the “sons of God”.
Next we have too many instances that refer to a physical ressurection.
1 Thessalonians 5
2 Thessalonians 1
1 Corinthians 15:20-23
2 Corinthians 5
Let me ask some questions.
1. What tent was Paul looking forward to in 2 Corinthians 5?
2. What was the concern of the Thessalonians that Paul had to address?
3. What was the heresy of the Colossians? Why is there a matter/spiritual debate that Paul must address?
4. Did Christ have a physical body that could eat be touched and didn’t Jesus himself say “touch me and see that I am not a spirit for spirit does not have flesh and bone”? Was He lying to Thomas? What exactly did Mary cling to?
5. Finally if Christ had such a body and Paul says “I don’t know what we will be like, but I know that we will be like Him” what was the “like him” Paul referred to?
If anyone is reading this rest assured that you will get a brand new physical body that will opeate just as the Lord Jesus. Where you can eat, drink and also travel through stuff and at lighting speed.This is the promise the saints have always looked forward to. So our redemption isn’t limited to a spiritual renewal. You are actually enjoying that union with Christ today (Ephesians 1-2) but there is another payment to be made and that is your physical renewal the promised of a new body in mint condition.
(MN: Paden copy and pasted an excerpt from a site. I chose not to publish the text. However, I did leave the link to the site in his comment. If you want to read the “argument” take a look at the site. But be prepared to be underwhelmed by the presentation. )
Melvin, GaryV, IndyCon, and all others,
Curious if there are any rebuttals to the following understanding of Christian Universalism. While studying the subjects of the second death, lake of fire, hell, and death I came across a few good studies on the Christian Universalist position that seems to agree with scripture. Obviously, not everyone will come to repentance in this age, but in the age(s) to come, all will be made to partake of the second death or lake of fire (death to sin). This particular article sums of the position quite well. Excerpt from: http://www.tentmaker.org
Ah Yes! Universalism a bigger lie then the Prosperity Gospel. Unregenerate, unrepentant, God Hating, sin loving, people being brought into the loving arms of Jesus when they die. Sigh! Sounds very nice but unfortunately it is a lie from the pit of hell itself.
When I was saved I was born a new creature. Since then by the power of the Holy Ghost I am being shaped more and more into Christ like and less and less sin like. This process could only have been accomplished by God choosing me as one of his elect.
Universalism rightly points out God’s omniscient and omnipresent nature but fails to point out mans wretched evil nature. We from our birth live our lives hell bent (literally) on serving the flesh and engaging in sin. We love it! It IS our nature. Our nature presents an absolute dichotomy between God’s righteousness and man’s sinfulness. We are enemies of God and by our nature hate his righteous ways. That being said, then how is it possible that after death we somehow become “born again” once we are absent our physical bodies. The universalist is implying that our sin nature has no bearing on our ultimate outcome. If this were true then why those of us who are saved have conviction, seek righteousness, repentance, fear God, flee from sin, and feel the urge to share the Gospel. According to Universalism this is useless. In essence I should be delving into all matters of my former sin desires seeing I have no punishment. Absolute folly.
Kyle
Your understanding of the Christian Universalist position is in error. There will be an age of judgement to come to deal with all people who have not become overcomers of sin in this present age. There is great blessing in being apart of the first resurrection for the second death has no power over them in the age to come (Rev 2:11 & 20:6). Those who have died to sin (second death) in this present age are now ruling and reigning with Christ and have been made alive. The rest of the dead (spiritually) will not live again until they have also partaking of God’s purifying fire judgement (Rev 20:5) We are presently being judged and partaking of the second death (crucifying our flesh daily). God’s judgements (symbolized by fire) is to purify and cleanse from all sin. For the last enemy to be destroyed is death (spiritual and physical). No endless (eternal, everlasting, forever and ever) torment or judgement or spiritual death. Check the original greek words for these mistranslated words (greek aion, aions, aionios). The good news is that Jesus is the savior of the whole word. There is hope of resurrection for all after physical death. But salvation is made available now. We can be alive to God and dead to sin now. We can enjoy the fruits of the Spirit and rule and reign with Christ now. Many traditions of hell and the lake of fire are in error. Remember, we know that God’s word is inerrant but not mens translations of his pure word. I think this subject is worthy of indepth study before casting it down so easily as heresy.
WOW………..sure takes a lot of allegorizing and redefining to make Universalism work. Couple that with the fact that it’s an unknown concept in the early church, and you can color me unimpressed.
Why didn’t Jesus pray or intercede for the whole world if the whole world was going to be saved?? He prayed only for those the Father had given Him.
Where is the concept of purifying fire after death which leads to eventual glory for those who reject Christ?? Isn’t this something Christ should have talked about, since He is supposedly the Savior of those who reject Him?? Why all the talk about the separation of the wheat and chaff,the sheep and goats, but never a breath about their reunification after the also never mentioned purgatory??
I am not sure of all that is presented on that site. I came across this article questioning the validity of the Christian Universalist perspective. The actual article link is http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/universalism-is-not-in-the-bible.htm
However, I included an excerpt from this article because of the abundance of scriptures quoted that seem to be rightly discerned and disagree with the Calvanistic and Armenian positions. Scriptures that seem to speak to the all of humanity. Rom 5:19; Col 1:20; John 17:2; John 3:35; Luke 3:6; I Tim 2:4 & 6; II Peter 3:9; Rom 11:32; John 13:3; John 6:37; John 3:17; John 12:32; Phil 2:10-11; and many others.
I have also done a 6 part audio study on this subject. http://www.churchatheart.com/audioarchives.html
(MN: Actually, a fairly quick read was all I needed to see many places where the writer really twisted Scripture. However, All are welcomed to take a look at it. )
Hey Joe,
A Christian Universalist is the same as an Afrian American Klu Klux Klansman, no, to make it even worse an African American President of the Klu Klux Klan. It is an oxymoron. Christ makes this very clear in Mattew 25. If there will be sheep and goats and the goats will be cast into the outter darkness that in itself erases any chance of an all inclusive salvation. Not to mention Luke 16. It is not only counter productive to the Christian Faith, I think such a stance in anti-thetical to the Gospel and we must say as many did with Carlton Pearson (he had problems before though) that you are preaching another Gospel. You see the Gospel must include what you are saved from. To be any Gospel at all. If there is no bad news there is no good news and we might as well eat, drink, and be merry for tomorrow we will be with Jesus. Not so my friend. John 3:36 is clear that all who are not found in Christ on that great day will have the wrath that is currently upon them poured out. 2 Thessalonians 1 is also another place of reference. But I think you may know all of these verses. Is this something you are stuggling with?
Jon,
Damnation never makes a man repent in sincerity. How is it possible for man to see the errors of his ways unless it is God himself by the power of the Holy Ghost to change mans heart and mind? Nobody is born a new creature by punishment. Universalist by it’s nature is works orientated not grace orientated. By the “sinner” having to “go through” a temporal hell implies that Christ’s grace was not sufficient and that additional torment must be applied to the unbeliever before God can institute his grace. This in essence is not grace but rather works. Grace is a free gift given to those whom God elects. If Jesus death, burial, and resurrection were universal then a true loving God would have no need to punish the unbeliever for a limited time prior to entering the kingdom. In other words God’s grace would be sufficient rendering any punishment a moot point. However, this is NOT the case. Please address my points.
I’ll be waiting to hear from you!
Kyle
kylesy, what do you mean damnation never makes a man repent in sincerity? are you saying that the Holy Spirit couldn’t use the fear of hell to cause a sinner to repent?
Mav,
I was putting it in context relative to the discussion at hand so let me clarify what I meant. I was implying that the person who is “already” in hell can’t repent. In other words it’s too late once you are there. However, according to the Universalist the concept of hell in temporal. Essentially a place where unbelievers go during the millennium reign of Christ. After which hell is destroyed and all those unrepentant sinners are given eternal life. Re-read Jon Paden’s dialog between he and I. Once that is done that should clarify things.
Kyle
Kyle & BlackandReformed,
Luke 16 – I imagine you are referring to the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. You are assuming that everything in this parable is to be taken literally which is a critical mistake in understanding this and all the other parables. There is no such thing as Abraham’s bosom and a place called hell with literal flames of fire burning the dead (apparently common paganistic views about the afterlife in Jewish traditions at the time). All dead both in Christ and those who are not are in sheol , hades, or the grave (mistranslated hell or hades in many bible versions).
The hope of the dead is a future resurrection (I Cor 15; I Thes 4:13-18). Study the parables in Luke 15 (parable of the lost sheep, lost coin, lost son) which seems to agree more with the Christian Universalist perspective.
For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost. (Luke 19:10)
I agree with you all that Unitarian Universalism (secular universalism) is indeed heresy and a false gospel (all roads lead to God mess), however I think there is a great misunderstanding with the Christian Universalist position.
(MN: Paden then proceeds to quote a massive number of scriptures. No commentary, just Scripture. What follows is a stream of verses that have words in them that he likes. One of them for instance, is the fact that God shows no partiality and doesn’t take bribes. This will likely be his last posting on this thread of universalism. He seems to think that there is a difference between trinitarian universalism and unitarian universalism. )
John 3:36 He who believes in the Son has everlasting life (aionios life- life of the ages) and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him. I think we should be careful on understanding the difference between life of the ages and immortality (everlasting life). For this mortal must put on immortality and this is yet still future. However, we become alive and receive life of the ages now if we repent and believe in and follow Christ. The wrath of God (judgment) is always righteous judgment that serves His divine purposes to bring all eventually to repentance that the scriptures will be fulfilled that says every knee will bow and every tongue will eventually confess Christ Jesus (Phil 2:10-11; Isa 45:23).
Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but grievous; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it. (Heb 12:11) (I’m glad I’m being judged and chastened now and not in the age of judgment to come!)
When your judgments come upon the earth, the people of the world learn righteousness (Isa 26:9).
See what a scorching wind has gone out from the Lord, a sweeping whirlwind. It whirls round the heads of the wicked; the Lord’s anger is not to be turned aside, until he has finished and achieved His heart’s desire. (Jer 30:24)
For I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me, declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all My pleasure (Isa 46:9-10)
in whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will (Eph 1:11)
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. (II Peter 3:9)
For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth (I Tim 2:3-4)
For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous. (Rom 5:19)
For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all. (Rom 11:32)
For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe (I Tim 4:10)
And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world (I John 2:2)
All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and he to whom the Son wills to reveal Him (Matt 11:27)
God shows no partiality or takes bribes (Deut 10:17; Acts 10:34)
For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross (Col 1:19-20)
Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation (preaching a false gospel?). Therefore we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God (seems to be a worthwhile reason to present this good news to all who are lost). For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him (II Cor 5:18-21)
And I when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to myself (John 12:32) (Is God not able to accomplish this in this age and/or in the age(s) to come? Not based on works but on God’s love and mercy.)
For whom the Lord loves He chastens and scourges every son whom He receives. (Heb 12:6)
As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten (Rev 3:19)
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son (John 3:16) Will God not judge, correct, chasten, purify all whom He loves? Will not all in this age or in the age to come be tried by God’s divine fire(I Peter 4:12), be baptized by His fire (Matt 3:11), be refined through His fire (Mal 3:2)(symbolic fire)? For God is a consuming fire (Heb 12:29) Isn’t it interesting how we so easily see these scriptures at symbolic fire and when it comes to passages that deal with God’s fire on the unrepentant many error in believing that it’s speaking of a literal flaming fire burning people forever?
(2 Thes 1:8-9) in flaming fire (not to be taken literally) taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. These shall be punished with everlasting destruction (aionios destruction – destruction of the age to destroy sin in the person) from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power… (they will not be made alive until the figurative 1000 years is up for they will be in condemnation, torment, judgment, chastisement in that age)- Rev 20:5
We are now ruling and reigning with Christ in the 1000 years (figuratively speaking- for this is some unknown time period not a literal 1000 year reign on earth- scripture does not say on earth anyway check it out) and are partakers of the first resurrection (Rev 20:4)
We will continue to reign with Christ until He has put all enemies under His feet (I Cor 15:25)
You mean to tell me that God commands us to love our enemies and to do good to those who use us but He literally burns all the billions of souls forever and they remain spiritually dead to God forever? How can this be so when the last enemy to be destroyed is death itself? (I Cor 15:26) How then would God be all in all? (I Cor 15:28)
What is the lake of fire? The lake of fire is the second death (Rev 20:14). What is the first and second death? What is the first and second birth?
the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual (I Cor 15:46)
The first death is physical and the second death is a spiritual death. For the second death is death to sin. The first birth is physical but to be born again (second birth –spiritual) one must crucify the flesh (death to sin) through the power of the Holy Spirit (baptized with fire-lake of fire). The lake of fire and brimstone signifies a fire burning with brimstone (the word brimstone or sulphur explains the character of the fire). The Greek word Theion translated brimstone is the same word Theion which means divine. The verb derived from Theion is Theioo, which means to hallow, to make divine, or to dedicate to a god. Therefore, it may be concluded that a lake of fire and brimstone would mean a lake of divine purification.
Must we deny the power of God to accomplish all that He desires and has preordained before the foundations of the world? Has God indeed shown partiality (respecter of persons) by choosing to only draw a few to Him to be saved? Will not God seek and save all the lost? Is He not fully able to draw all men to Himself? Is He not able to reconcile the whole world to God?
You tripping bro! I can’t respond. Satan has duped you dude. He has sold you swamp land at a million dollars an acre, telling you a real estate boom is coming.
Jon,
Do you understand that logically if universalism is true, we don’t need a gospel? The end result is the same, right? What am I missing? (Sorry for asking this question Mel, given that this may be his last post on the subject)
(MN: If he responds to THIS question, I will post his response. )
Blackandreformed,
These two scriptures come to mind after reading your last post.
(Matt 22:29) You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God
(Matt 15:6) you have made the Word of God of no effect because of your traditions
(MN: Mr. Paden then continued in his wide circles for several more paragraphs. Interestingly, he asked if anyone can provide a rebuttal for his position. In other words, he didn’t answer the question. As a result, he doesn’t get to post in this thread any more. )
Let me ask a serious question folks. Is Joe. P a brother in Christ? That is the question we have to ask and it will depend how we communicate with him going forward. Read the brothers Doctrinal statement and you won’t find much to disagree with until you get to the last point. Very trickey Mr. Paden. So I don’t know. I am going to have to pray about this one bro. I still have to affirm that the Good New is Good New indeed. And Matthew 25 and 2 Thessolonians 1 makes the wrath of God everlasting. So here are the serious questions. And lets not play games.
1. What exaclty does Jesus mean in Matthew 25? The word He chooses is “aiōnios” which means never ceasing and never ending! You say that this is temproary. How do you answer that?
2. If that is final answer then will the Devil and those who rebel also be forgiven and brought back into the prescence of God? If so then how do you deal with:
Revelation 20:7-10
2 Peter 3:1-13
What exactly does Jesus mean by forever and ever and no end, eternal destruction? I can’t see how you ignore these and though it sounds harsh and what it seems like you are saying is that God is too loving for such a thing, you must reconcile that thought to your doctrinal statement in the inerrancy of the Scriptures.
Hello, bar:
[Aside] Thinking of the Browning Automatic Rifle . . . sigh.
Anyway, I navigated over to Herr Paden’s site and plainly, my eyes glazed over and interest failed before I “[got] to the last point,” blackandreformed.
So, reading your comment, I whisked back to Jonny’s page, and clicked the tab, What We Believe.
I will quote just the first portion of Paden’s “last point” under “The Remedial Design and Limitation of Punishment.”
Here it is: “We believe the Lord will not cast off forever; . . . ”
The prophet, Daniel, has a different take on Jon’s limitation of punishment in c12v2: “Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.
As Carroll’s Alice succinctly spoke: “It would be so nice if something made sense for a change.”
Love,
Peter
I have a very simple question for Mr Paden…….
Sir, please note the use of the word “everlasting” in relation to punishment.
Mat 18:8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast [them] from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into EVERLASTING fire.
Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into EVERLASTING fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into EVERLASTING punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with EVERLASTING destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
(GV) Now,please note the use of the same word in reference to salvation.
Mat 19:29 And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name’s sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit EVERLASTING life.
Luk 16:9 And I say unto you, Make to yourselves friends of the mammon of unrighteousness; that, when ye fail, they may receive you into EVERLASTING habitations.
Luk 18:30 Who shall not receive manifold more in this present time, and in the world to come life EVERLASTING.
Jhn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have EVERLASTING life.
Jhn 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath EVERLASTING life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Jhn 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into EVERLASTING life.
Jhn 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath EVERLASTING life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
(GV) Now,you will please note that in both the passages referring to everlasting punishment AND the passages referring to everlasting life,the Greek word translated as “everlasting” is identical.
So,my question is this:
If the character of “everlasting” punishment is not of an eternal nature,but only a temporary one, are you going to be consistent with both the Greek grammar and the elementary laws of logic and proclaim just as boldly that the nature of eternal life bought by the Blood of the Lamb of God for His sheep is temporary as well?? You must, or your entire house of cards falls in ruin.
Further, if you are going to be grammatically and logically consistent and say that the nature of eternal punishment AND eternal life are BOTH temporary because “eternal” means “temporary”, then please explain how you incorporate the next verses into your theology…….
Rom 16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the EVERLASTING God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
Precisely the SAME Greek word is used here to describe the EVERLASTING GOD as has been used to describe EVERLASTING torment and EVERLASTING life.
Now the laws of grammar and logic force you to an even more perilous conclusion if you are to be consistent with your theory.
IF everlasting DAMNATION comes to an end, then not only everlasting LIFE comes to an end, but the everlasting GOD comes to an end as well. Are you prepared to concede this to retain your position??
Also,if you try to wriggle out of the inescapable conclusion of God coming to an end which your position dictates through such sophistry as claiming that it’s not necessarily an “end” but a “change” of some sort which comes to both those who partake of eternal life and eternal punishment, then you are caught on the horns of a further dilemma.
IF the Greek adjective “everlasting” allows for a CHANGE in nature or character when in reference to everlasting death and everlasting life, then to be grammatically and logically consistent it must therefore allow for a CHANGE in the everlasting God as well.
But unfortunately for your theory (but very fortunately for us), God does NOT change.
Mal 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not.
Hbr 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
James 1:17 Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.
Mr Paden, can you reconcile all these elements into your theology without eviscerating Scripture, the nature of God, grammar, and logic??
IF EVERLASTING damnation allows for either an end OR a change in its nature or character, then you MUST allow that the EVERLASTING GOD is also subject to both an END and a CHANGE in His nature and character as well.
I look forward to your reply.
Melvin,
You said “MN: If he responds to THIS question, I will post his response.” I responded directly to Bro. Lawrences questions. Isn’t this suppose to be a reputable Christian site.
(MN: You are free to judge the repute of this site. However, please note that your “response” consisted of nothing more than a stream of scripture quotes. Quoting a scripture does not answer a question, at least not on this site. Talk, explain, amplify. Don’t just mindlessly recite verses simply because they have the words you are using in them. In the following, you actually
Bro. Lawrence D.,
Your logic might have you to be led to that conclusion. However, I and others who hold to this position believe it is of utmost importance to proclaim the gospel (good news). What is the good news? That Jesus is the savior of the world. And that through His sacrifical death on the cross all mankind can now be reconciled to God by grace through faith. We no longer have to remain bound by sin. We can be healed of our spiritual sickness. We can now be made alive to God through Christ. We can now be made joint-heirs with Christ, ruling and reigning with Him. We can now inherit the kingdom of God. There is also hope for all of the dead. That in the age to come all others will be drawn to the cross and repent and profess Christ (second death or cast into the lake of fire). And at the consumation of the ages, God will be all in all.
What about those who live this life however they want with the hope of eventually be saved? Why serve Christ now?
I will limit the scriptures this time!
(Rom 7:23) For the wages of sin is death
(Rom 8:7) For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spirtually minded is life and peace.
(Rom 5:9) we shall be saved from the wrath through Him
Can someone provide a worthy rebuttal with the use of scriptures instead of just casting this off as heresy and making silly comments? And Melvin, I don’t understand why you are so quick to end my post when I provided ample of scripture and commentary for all to study? I thought usually you cut post that lacked scripture backing like the few rebuttals I have received so far.
(MN: You did not provide “ample commentary.” You simply presented passages and moved on to the next one. Which is pretty much what you did - again - with the mercifully few scriptures you again present above. Here, let me address your quotes.
The good news is Jesus is the savior of the world.
I would disagree. Jesus Himself said He came to save those whom the Father has given Him, not the world. [Okay, that was a rebuttal on your commentary. You don't have to tell us no one is rebutting.] On several occasions folks have presented to you scripture that says some will be raised to EVERLASTING LIFE and the rest to EVERLASTING damnation. You have to ignore this, or somehow come to the conclution that EVERLASTING damanation is the same as EVERLASTING life. [This bit of fiction has been rebutted.] You refuse to address the rebuttal. GaryV is posting a comment that again addresses your refusal to discuss the eternal nature of salvation and the eternal nature of damnation. You are making yourself look really foolish by insisting that no one is addressing your proposals.
This is all true. The christian is all of these things. No one is arguing that this is not true - - for the Christian. But the issue at this point is not about the Christian. It’s about those who have died without Christ. For this you say:
This littel ditty of yours continues to ignore what was said earlier about those being raised to eternal damnation versus those raised to eternal glory.
By the way, I cut responses that repeat themselves, present endless flows of irrelevant scripture, or fail to address an issue. You have done what few have accomplished on this site. You got a trifecta. )
Mr. Joe can you please answer the questions how they are presented?
Dang
…..July of 2008 & I thought that one was hopefully long-forgotten (though since March of 2007, still infamous). Oh well…..no use crying over spilled milk.
Apart from that, would anyone here happen to know where I could possibly find the debate between Don Preston and MJ? As this discussion reminded me of it—–and I’d like to know whether or not what’s discussed here was already covered there. Blessings…..and many thanks for much of the polemic work that’s done over here for the Kingdom of God. More than necessary nowadays…so be encouraged (1 Thessalonians 5:11-21, Hebrews 3:12-14), and for much of it, it’s not forgotten ( Mark 9:38-41, Matthew 25:31-40).
GDub, nobody thinks of Peter as a man of partiality, but we still note when we have to admonish someone for harboring partiality and mention “how Paul had to confront Peter”. It does not mean we see Peter as a man of partiality though.
Likewise, Melvin bringing up a past misdeed on your part does not mean he still thinks of you as a deceiver.
It’s totally OK for Melvin to mention it given the history of this. Don’t like the history, well you spilled the milk my brother. Like you said, no use crying over it.
(MN: Exactly. Or as one of my favorite talkshow hosts says: “It is what it is.” )
Melvin, thank you for informing me that ISA is REALLY the HERETIC TEACHING THE FALSE DOCTRINE OF PRETERISM, MSAMU!
Coming as if he is someone else “reaching out”, when he’s really being a deceiver and knows his mess has already been discussed. But they keep on coming back again and again, knowing I’ve already told them I won’t waste another keystroke on them. So they try and trick us with their games and whether they play the role of some naive newcomer or themselves, their hacks of scripture are still obvious error!
Well, I stick to my original position that the heretic does not get another keystroke in response from me, thanks for the heads up Melvin.
And someone else tried to jump in with the heresy of universalism. I’m not going to waste time with that error either. Kyle already addressed it well enough.
Does anyone recognize the category error presented by ISA? Isn’t a spiritual body a body none the less? It’s not a spiritual spirit is it? Didn’t Jesus say that he had “flesh and bone” not “flesh and blood”? Am I missing something? It is sown a physical body. (subject to the limits of physicality: sickness, fatique, hunger, thirst, etc.) It is raised a spiritual body. (not subject to sickness, fatigue, hunger, thirst, etc.) We will have a body or “descernable image” which is akin to our finiteness. God is infinite, therefore He is a Spirit without a body. Now I realize that Christ is at this time in a spiritual body as well but that is because of His function as our High Priest. He infinite existence as God is without question.
MSAMU…you wrote as ISA saying this:
(Msamu/ISA) It seems Adam’s physical death was inevitable? (Gen 3:19).
(GV) Gen 3:19 comes AFTER the Fall. Death was inevitable AFTER Adam fell, but there is no HINT that physical death was Adam’s lot had he not rebelled against God. In fact, without the sin that precipitated the Fall, death was impossible since death only comes through sin.
(Msamu/ISA)If I understand correctly, Adam’s spiritual death happened the very day he sinned, Adam’s willful act of disobedience (sin) separated him from a spiritual life with God the Father? Here’s where I get confused, if Adam’s sin had nothing to do with physical death, (Adam was created mortal thus he would physically die anyway)
(GV) Wrong……..see above. Nothing in Scripture says that Adam would have died physically had he not sinned. In fact the Scripture says explicitly that death entered the world BY SIN, therefore had Adam not sinned there would have been no death.
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by ONE MAN (Adam) sin entered into the world, and DEATH BY (Adam’s) SIN; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
No sin by Adam, no death….so he was NOT headed for inevitable death at his creation. So Adam’s sin had EVERYTHING to do with his physical death, since without sin no death was possible……..sin being the vehicle which brought death into the cosmos.
Nice try (Not really).
(Msamu/ISA) and Christ as the second Adam (spiritual), was sent to reconcile man back to spiritual life and not a physical life with God
(GV) See your erroneous suppositions above to understand that man was intended to live PHYSICALLY with God before Adam sinned. And, since Christ came to restore all that had been lost in Adam and even more, that would by definition include a physical presence with God.
(Msamu/ISA) why are we looking for a physical resurrection.
(GV) Because that is what has been promised. A PHYSICAL resurrection.
Isa 26:19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
Job 19:25 I know that my Redeemer lives, and that in the end he will stand upon the earth.
Job 19:26 And after my skin has been destroyed,yet in my flesh I will see God;
Job 19:27 I myself will see him with my own eyes—I, and not another.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of His resurrection: (Remember Christ after resurrection was HANDLED, TOUCHED, ATE. It was a PHYSICAL Body.
There are many others we could cite, but this should do nicely.
(Msamu/ISA) Scripture states, It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body; why are we looking for the resurrection of a physical body?
(GV) Nowhere in Scripture (or in Jewish culture or writings) do you find “Spiritual” meaning “ghostly, ethereal, non corporeal”.
1Cr 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
Does this mean that only the folks in the church who don’t have physical bodies are the ones able to judge??
1Cr 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, [even] as unto babes in Christ.
HMMMMM…….I guess that Paul knew who the spiritual ones were because they didn’t have physical bodies, right?? Only the invisible (like Jesus in 70AD) are spiritual according to you.
1Cr 14:37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
Let me give the Msamu paraphrase…….”If any man think himself a prophet or invisible and without a body……”
Read some Jewish literature of the period for the love of Pete. If a Jewish man says something is “spiritual” and you don’t want to misunderstand, find out what Jews MEANT when they used the word “spiritual”.
Also,the word used by Paul for “body” is the word SOMA, which ALWAYS (both in the Bible AND contemporary writings of that era) refers to a PHYSICAL body, and quite often even to corpses rather than some invisible, ghostly, non-corporeal thing.
(Msamu/ISA) Scripture says; that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God;
(GV) Right………but Jesus’ resurrection body was NOT flesh and blood.It was flesh and bones (Lk 24:39).
The Bible does not say FLESH cannot inherit the Kingdom, it say flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom. BTW, the expression “flesh and blood” is used in the Bible and Jewish literature as a reference to mortal man. So, naturally mortal man cannot inherit the Kingdom. But a resurrected man who shares in the likeness of Christ’s resurrection (see Scriptures previously cited) will not be flesh and blood (mortal) but flesh and bone (precisely the condition of Christ’s Body when HE inherited the Kingdom).
(Msamu/ISA) if Adam’s death was spiritual, Christ came to reconcile man back to God the Father raising mankind from the dead (spiritually the death Adam suffered). Since Adam’s death was not physical, wouldn’t the resurrection be spiritual? 1Cor 15:44.
(GV) Refer back to your original erroneous assumptions about Adam being doomed to die from the moment of his creation. We have seen Scripturally that this argument is a dunghill, because death only entered AFTER Adam sinned, therefore Adam was NOT created to die physically (since there was no sin and therefore no death in the original creation of which Adam was the focus). Adam’s death was BOTH spiritual AND physical.
(Msamu/ISA) My pastor will not discuss this with me any more, so I’m reaching out. Prov 4:7
(GV) Liar. I thought you didn’t HAVE a pastor Msamu?? No standing on the shoulders of men for you.
What exactly does it say about someone who resorts to lying like this, and further even lying about their identity, in order to deceive folks into what I’m sure you saw as a trap??
Well, your trap has been sprung by Scripture, and your lies have been exposed by the all-seeing Benevolent Dictator. Enjoy your banishment.
By, Walt Hibbard-THE APOSTLE PAUL TELLS US THAT OUR BODIES WHEN WE DIE RETURN TO THE DUST AND BELIEVERS ARE GIVEN NEW RESURRECTION BODIES, LIKE UNTO CHRIST’S GLORIOUS,INCORRUPTIBLE, IMMORTAL, SPIRITUAL BODY I Cor. 15:37-38 And what you sow, you do not sow the body that [is] going to be….and God gives it a body according as He willed, and to each of the seeds its own body. God does not need the bones, flesh, skin and corruption of our dead physical bodies from which to give us a new body like unto Christ’s glorious body. The “germ” or our personalities (spirit) are taken by God and united with the immortal spiritual bodies which are suitable for a heavenly existence, just as our earthly bodies were suitable for living on the earth during our lives.
Only Jesus Christ was resurrected in His sinless earthly body. Only to Jesus was it promised that His body would not suffer decay (Acts 2:31; 13:37). He was sinless and born of the Virgin Mary. He did not inherit Adam’s sin unto Himself, but was sinless and undefiled. So there is both continuity and discontinuity of the resurrection of the believer as compared to that of Christ. Be we receive a heavenly, glorified spirit body like Christ’s when we die. This is immediate. There is no waiting in Sheol/Hades until a yet future physical resurrection of our decayed bodies in the ground where our spirits would be reunited with our reconstituted physical bodies. In other words, the Bible does not teach the doctrine of “disembodied spirits” from the time we die physically until the supposedly future resurrection day. The “seed analogy” of I Cor. 15:37-38 quoted above “refutes this weird” teaching. Btw MN can we have some “proof” please about Msamu as ISA for the records. The bottom line again is this, is that you boys have your presuppositions already in place! It’s a year later and thank God for having our own Bibles
for both sides. Hyper-Futurism is at it’s all time LOW!! LOL did I read flesh and bones wow! Where is the blood lol it’s getting desperate isn’t it. Boys it is what it is, the traditions of men are act stake. The ultra-literalism traditions will always be around because you have a long “time” wait. You boys can and will have the last writings on this site. It makes no difference it is what it is sad.
(MN: I have two pieces of evidence. The first is MSAMU’s e-mail address included in the second posting. I am not willing to disclose the second one. And it really doesn’t matter. MSAMU knows what he did and I know what he did. The rest of you can decide for yourselves. as I said, most folks reading the follow-on to the first question can easily see that the person is attempting to argue their point without appearing to argue their point.
By the way DTG, it’s really fun watching your attempts at labeling. Hyper-futurism. LOL. You break me up!
But you see, this only works [the lable] if there is such a thing as futurism. You are called hyper-preterist becauxe many reformed folks do sign up to what is called preterism or partial preterism. They, for instance, say that most of the promises to Israel were fulfilled and that the Church is now replacing Israel. But they recognize that there are still prophecies yet to be fulfilled.
It’s kind of like the difference between Calvinism and Hyper-calvinism.
By the way, as the Benevolent Dictator, yours is the last posting in that particular thread. I have no intention of continuing to give you a platform for hyper-preterist arguments. Over the next six months, I will likely be testing some of my arguments against H-P. When I do, feel free to contribute, argue, or otherwise help with the development. But until then, tell your buddy to be man enough to post under his own name.
Byt the way folks, I really want to draw your attention to a statement DTG makes in the comment of his. It’s really critical.
Did you catch that? If I’m reading it right, he is saying there is no future resurrection. Do any of you recall Paul and company talking about this? I believe the joker’s name was Hymaneus. Isn’t it interesting to watch the HYPER-PRETERISTS say exactly the same thing the guys in the past said? DTG even seems to go in for the idea of soul sleep. And of course, their logic for saying it is so incredibly twisted that it takes a person literally months to untangle it.
)
Shoot, I wish I had seen the posts by Brother LD and Lionel before I posted mine
whoa nelly! what on earth is going on here? i just spoke to micheal this morning and he told me that he didn’t write under an assumed name. melville, you say you have proof because his e-mail was attached to it and “something else”.
this is disturbing to me because mickey is our friend and i can’t see why he would lie to us about using an alias. he said he didn’t do it and you said he did. someone is lying and this is so unnecessary.
(MN: I can’t understand it either. But I have the e-mail address and the second bit of evidence. If MSAMU can explain it, then hey, I will run down Independence Avenue in a gold lame spandex swim trucks and a viking helmet on. The one thing you have to remember is that this is not a court of law. MSAMU does have to prove to me that he is innocent.
Actually, it doesn’t have to be that one of us is lying. That is actually something of a false dilemma. I might be mistaken, I might be lying, or he might be dealing a little loosely with the truth. I certainly don’t think I’m lying - or mistaken.
Tell you what, I am sending you my evidence and you can decide for yourself if I have made a mistake. If you can convince me that I have indeed made a mistake, then that will have me wearing the gold lame spandex and a Valkyrie wig on Constitution Avenue as well. It’s on its way to you now. )
btw, i agree with gg. i would hate for the saints to use my past faults as an example of what someone is allegedly doing now. i wonder if paul often brought up the fact that he had to withstand peter to the face whenever he had to make a point about someone being partial. i doubt it. and i’m not saying that you often throw up gg’s past but i think it was unnecessary to bring it up at all especially since you know he’d rather it stay buried.
spilled milk or not. (MN: You may indeed be right about that. Let me consider it. What do others of you think about mrs. mav’s statement? )
Mel said, ” I will run down Independence Avenue in a gold lame spandex swim trucks and a viking helmet on.”
Try that in New Yorks red light district bro and see how far you get.
Kyle
Melvin, you only mentioned GG because you felt MSAMU was here when you made it clear you don’t take sock puppetry lightly.
You’ve given GG an apology and next time someone does it, if they were here when you handled the ISA/MSAMU sock puppetry, it would make perfect sense for you to say “you know how I dealt with this when you saw it happen with ISA/MSAMU”. And then on to the next.
But in regards to past misdeeds being mentioned later, Nineveh repented and Jesus brought it up hundreds of years later, Matthew 12:41. And I guess when someone heard that, they asked “what did the people of Nineveh do?” If they didn’t already know.
If ISA was not MSAMU, I suspect ISA would have already attempted to correct the record with Melvin. But now if someone claiming to be ISA contacts Melvin, we know it’s only because it has now been mentioned that in a real case of misidentification, the other misidentified party would have already spoken up. Meaning an “ISA” trying to contact Melvin now would simply be MSAMU trying to keep the charade going.
But again about past misdeeds being mentioned again in scripture, Acts 15:36-41. Some claim Paul was wrong to remember John, called Mark deserting him in the “past”. Personally, I don’t see anywhere in scripture where it is noted Paul was at fault for not taking John, called Mark along and choosing Silas instead. Barnabas disagreed, but did the Lord ever chastise Paul for picking Silas? No. And we see in verse 40, that other believers bid Paul well, committing him to the Lord’s grace. It appears to fully justify Paul’s actually remembering something that occurred in the past. Well it’s rather obvious to me, but I’m not made at anybody that sides with Barnabas.
(MN: Shoot. Now I’m halt between two choices. )
s m h.
Righter doesn’t believe MSAMU is ISA based upon the way the post was written…
I’ve no clue what gg did however, I would say that whatever he did should be left buried if he rectified the issue here with the saints. Consider - everytime he’s used as the example, those who were not involved get to ask “what did he do?”. It encourages gossip, I think. When we’ve repented with God, He never brings it back up. He does that for us all. If gg does ‘it’ again, I think that Titus 3:10 might well apply.
(MN: Okay. My apologies GDub. )
To Ms. Mav, apprecations for going to bat for me…..and the same with walksbyf8h, as I appreciated your comments regarding gossip since it was one of the things I was going to bring up ( Gossip
Again, it was appreciated. And to Melvin, apologies accepted (Ephesians 4:29-5:2, 1 Corinthians 13:5)Blessings…..
Don’t forget everyone - this Friday is 08/08/08, a day we will never see again in our lifetime. This is your opportunity to allow God to create a new you, since the number 8 represents a new beginning. Sow your financial seed, and watch God move!!!
Sorry, my “church” is having one of these services. Actually there will be three of them: the first one being the night before until 12:08 AM, the second one at 8AM on the actual day, and the final one at 8PM that night. Corporate prayer times are at 9AM, 12PM, and 3PM that Friday as well. And the actual announcement in the bulletin states the services are not for spectators, but for those actually seeking a move of God. It was also mentioned that this was not a means of making money.
Can someone tell me how to make the “shaking my head” smiley for this posting? That’s what I’m actually doing right now…..
EWO,
I have a better idea. Leave now!
Kyle
(MN: I wasn’t going to say anything, but since you mentioned it - DITTO! I think the eights thing is quite a departure. )
EWO,
Kinda reminds me of the King of eights rhyme in Sesame Street when i was a kid.
“Feed the flock, not on the flock.”
WOW!!! 8/8/08?? FANTASTICAL!! We’ll NEVER see this kind of thing AGAIN!!
Until 9/9/09.
And Heaven help us when we get to the magical 10/10/10…………The Bo Derek Anointing.
actually, there was a deep anointing flowing on 7/7/07- you must’ve missed it.
Mav, GaryV,
You think that is bad. Have you heard what Morris Cerullo ( You know, the guy with the black shoe polish on his hair) is barfing up during these hard finacial times? Apparently Morris has proclaimed 2008 the year of breakthrough during these hard financial times.
Check it out.
https://www.helplinetv.com/offers/product.php?productid=70&cat=0&page=1&featured
Kyle
Yeah buddy, Morris is one Pimpadelic clown.
Melvin,
Have you ever read his bio? This is BIG PIMPIN.
http://www.cephas-library.com/evangelists/evangelist_morris_cerullo_fraud.html
Kyle
Wow! What an edifying website. I read through your comments and find it very interesting that on a website where you claim to know the “truth” and have such a handle on what Christian leaders should be doing and how they should conduct themselves in every manner, this particular post has managed to talk about everything from calling my father a pimp, to talking about the size of his forehead.
(MN: Welcome Donnie’s son/daughter. Glad to have you here. )
I am saddened that you have nothing better to do with your life and gifting than to create discord and defile the names and reputations of other people. (MN: I don’t defile the reputations of other people. I quote their public words for all to see. If their public words are defiling, why in the world are they saying them? And why in the world are you defending them?) Since you have such malice toward Christian leaders, what is your take on discord among Christians at large?
(MN: First, a correction. I don’t have malice toward Christian leaders. I have malice toward Christian leaders who pimp the sheeple. I have no idea what your question means. Are you asking me to give you my opinion of why there is discord among those who name the name of Christ? )
Do you feel that your name slinging is serving the purpose of God in the earth? If so, more power to you, if you feel that you are impacting the world and you can sleep at night, that’s great. (MN: What, exactly, is name slinging? Is that similar to mud slinging? )
Just remember that while you are dragging people’s names through the mud on the internet, they have families, children, and even “Sheeple” who love them. (MN: Yes. And it’s those sheeple we are trying to warn about them. ) How would you feel if your children were exposed to your face on some stupid website led by a very opinionated person who is probably just angry that their passion in life yielded them minimal success and for that reason, their envy for those who have happiness keep them swaddling in misery?
(MN: I’d feel fine about it. My children would be able and willing to defend my actions, my behavior and my conclusions. How about you? Do you want to defend the folks your dad hangs with? Or how about the deal with charging folks $175 for so-called mentoring? Does it bother you that he associates on such a close basis with John K. Jenkins, the pastor of First Baptist Church of Glenarden on the Kettering? Or are you going to play the kicked puppy who can only respond emotionally? I suspect, from the tone of your comment, it will be the latter. )
My question is, what is your agenda? What is it that you intend to accomplish and by what are you measuring yoru progress? I mean, no matter how much you complain and stalk their websites to capture what their words, they still have more supporters than you do and their churches are still growing.
I am certainly nowhere near taking the stance of a kicked puppy, just simply trying to see what your goal is and where it fits into God’s agenda. The agenda you claim to have the greatest understanding of.
(MN: I’m sorry - where have I claimed to have such a great knowledge of God’s agenda. As far as what I hope to accomplish, take a look at the “Why This Site” link. Oh, and the number of people who turn from the pimps is not my business. My “job” is to warn them, and you, and thus remove your excuse for staying with the pimps. )
Too Chicken….
Remember these verses when you measure success from the number of people:
“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.” Matthew 7:13-14
I do not think that large numbers of people automatically quailify a ministery as being from God. By the way these verses appear right before Jesus warns of false teachers. Many will be mislead in the end and these false teachers are taking them there.
Who said that large numbers are the measure of success? I mentioned that no one is leaving their ministries as a result of this website as evidence that this website is worthless, hater babble.
Bottom line is, when it is all said and done, if these preachers are wrong, they will have to answer to God. you will also have to answer to God for the discord you have planted concerning them.
(MN: But if they are wrong, should we warn people to be stay away from these people? Or are you saying we should have unity even at the cost of the truth? )
You did. “…they still have more supporters than you do and their churches are still growing.” To me that came across as measuring success in terms of the number of people.
Maybe you do not realize it but we are in a battle. Not only are we called to be children of God, but also to be soliders of God. We are to fight the advances of satan and help people to see their sin, repent, and accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior (the GOSPEL). Anytime someone trys to add to the Gospel we should point it out and warn people against it.
There is the idea out there that to love each other in the church we are to never point out errors. I have grown in my years as a Christain, because people were willing to talk to me about errors I was making. Studying God’s word has been critical in keeping me on track. So, why does it cause discord to point out men and women who have built churches on false teachings and are leading people down the wide path?
You are wrong “Anonymous” … some of the information I learned from this website was the deciding factor in why I left my local pimp church and stopped giving to my television pimpette of choice at the time (Joyce Meyer) … The Lord has used this site tremendously in teaching me the truth about those who would’ve otherwise led me to hell!
By the way, why is it that so many pimp defenders hide behind the name “Anonymous?” … it’s not like anyone would know who you are any more than you know who I am with a name like BooBoo’s Dad!!!! The Lord doesn’t give you a “spirit of fear” … so why are you afraid???
So there we have it, you do think you have the ultimate say on “truth”. (MN: I don’t think I have the ultimate say on the truth. However, I can say Jesus did not suffer in hell for our sins. I can say God did not use faith to create the universe and other absolute truths. ) Perhaps you could invest your energy in something like evangelism, building up the body of Christ and sharing the Gospel in the manner in which you feel the Lord has called and led you to. (MN: I do all of those things now. The Gospel is occassionally presented here, though it’s not the primary purpose of the site. I build up the Body of Christ by presenting the truth to Christians. ) Differences of approach and opinion are common to the Christian faith, from the beginning. Differences are not good enough reason to discredit the validity of another or to create a website that provides a platform for destructive conversation about other people. (MN: The things we discuss are simply “differences.” )
I do pray God’s peace for you and that wherever and however you were wounded by Pastor Jenkins or the First Baptist Church, the Lord would begin to heal you completely.
(MN: Since you bring it up, I now have the opportunity to review the occurences. They are as follows:
1. John began dragging the church into a Word of Faith environment both in his preaching and in the people he associated with and brought into the church to speak.
2. John took up T. Dexter Jakes as his “mentor”
3. John began preaching that our sins were not paid for on the cross but were paid for by Jesus suffering in hell.
4. When I talked to John K. Jenkins about what he began preaching, he confirmed he was saying exactly that - our sins were paid for by His suffering in hell, not by His death on the cross. He was actually quite proud of the teaching. He then spent the next couple or three months in an inept attempt to defend the teaching.
5. Given that he began preaching a different gospel [suffering in hell vs death on the cross] I obeyed Scripture and walked away from the church. I distributed a flyer to the members of the class I was teaching to let them know I was leaving and why I was leaving. I wanted to make sure the facts for my leaving were known and documented.
6. My wife chose to stay - more interested in relationships and familiarity than doctrine
7. I asked John K. Jenkins if he thought my wife should leave FBCG(otK) and he replied “Yes, I think she should.”
8. I asked if he would cousel her to leave FBCG(otK) and come with me. He said “No, I will not counsel her to do this.”
9. Later, when I spoke to him with the pastor of a church I attended, we again asked him if he would cousel my wife to leave. This time, he said he would cousel her to leave if I apoplogized, that is if I apologized for letting folks know why I left. At that point he reversed himself and was apparently more interested in pressuring me to back off my stand and willing to attempt to blackmail me with my wife.
If you think any of his behavior is proper, I want you to identify them and provide some kind of justification for that judgment. Otherwise, please spare me the very useless attempt at justifying his behavior.
The bottom line: I am not in need of healing. However, John K. Jenkins is in need of repentance. )
Church hurt is deep, which is apparent by the vigor with which you go after him and those connected to him. May the peace of God be yours, may joy, wholeness and everything you are in need of be extended to you through the grace and mercy of God.
(MN: Again, address the issues. Does he associate with oneness people and bring them into preach? Does he associate with WoF folks and bring them in to preach? Does he preach that you can’t teach yourself about the Bible?
Please stop with the emotional attempts at covering his behavior and abberant teachings. )
Farewell…
I am not covering anything. The mere fact that you don’t think you need healing, especially after your very emotional response to my post, says that you do.
(MN: Dude, the comment wasn’t emotional. It recounted the facts. I think you may be the one suffering from an overabundance of emotion. Deal with the facts. )
I am not trying to cover John Jenkins, I have never met him nor have I ever heard him preach. (MN: Then I suggest you listen to him before you try to psycho analyze me. Perhaps there is a basis for the things I say. ) In fact all that I know of his church, I read on this website. I am simply saying that I hope the Lord would heal YOU and that you would have peace. That didn’t have anything to do with Bishop Jakes, John Jenkins or anyone else. (MN: I have peace. Being obedient to Christ tends to bring peace. You seem to think that speaking out against something means a person doesn’t have peace. I’m not sure where you got that idea from. And if you’ll remember, his association with Jakes is one of the reasons I left. )
LOL…I have to ask, have you ever wacked your little toe? When you did, was that John Jenkins fault too? (MN: Yes. He was hiding in my closet and turned the light off, making me bump my toe on my furniture. HAven’t I blamed him for everything? ) Perhaps you are the one that should stop with the emotional attempts to use Jenkins as a smoke screen for your own issues. (MN: What issues am I smokescreening? )
(MN:By the way, if you are going to comment, please put a tag in the “Name” block. That way I differentiate you from all the other nameless anonymii. )
In response to number nine of your list of the things John Jenkins did to you. Is the real issue that you thought your wife liked him more than she liked you? (MN: Jenkins didn’t do anything to me. And no, the real issue isn’t that my wife likes John Jenkins more than she likes me. The real issue is that John, knowing my wife will consider what he says, refused to counsel her as he admitted he should. I don’t expect any better out of him, and I can only fault myself for not having trained my wife better - in fact for even taking us to the church to begin with. John is a pimp and he exercises the same control over most of the women in that church that pimps exercise over their stable. After some nine years, I can see my wife’s understanding of what she is doing increasing. We have discussions about leaving FBCG(otK) and she actually talks about why she is there. If all goes well, she should be out of there within the next couple or three years. At least that is my prayer. )
Perhaps that is something for you to examine as well. your wife wasn’t even in agreement with what you had done. I guess if I was standing out there on a limb and not even my wife was with me, I would be bitter too.
(MN: I’m not bitter. And I wasn’t standing on a limb. I AM, however, standing on the Rock. Consider Luke 14:24 - 26
or even Matthew 10:34-36 which says:
As much as I love my wife, I will not put our relationship ahead of the truth. As much as I love her, I will not allow her to set the direction the household goes if that direction is contrary to Jesus Christ. John, and his friends like Donnie H preach doctrine and support people who preach doctrine that contrary to Jesus Christ. You can talk all you want about healing and bitterness and lots of other stuff, but the bottom line is Christ and Him crucified, not Christ, Him suffering in hell, and my emotions as guide.
I suggest you look at how well you are leading your family in the truth. The wife and I now have daily devotion. In fact, we are finishing up on Hebrews. We don’t use anything developed or pushed by John. We depend on my efforts at study. And watching her develop in her understanding of Hebrews (we’ve also gone over Jude, the three letters form John and James) has been really encouraging. When she does go to FBCG(otK) she now comes home and we go over the sermon John presented.
So what are you doing to wash your wife in the water of the Word? Or do you just go with her to church service every Sunday and turn to your neighbor and say [fill in the blank]? Instead of that, I am selecting Bible verses - the two I just quoted for instance - for us to memorize together after we go over the meaning, implications, and applications of the verses.. And she is doing an incredible job of it. She even beat me getting one memorized. )
Thank God for the marriage counseling I got from the counseling center at Donnie H’s “Church of more power and money” I learned that a house divided can’t stand.
(MN: And I thank God for the counseling I got at the hand of John Jenkins and the other counselors there as well. It gave me great insight into who these people are. I learned from the Bible that the house must be built on a solid foundation since a house built on false doctrine can’t stand. And if I do my job right, with God’s blessing she will see people like John and Donnie H as mere spewers of religious cotton candy. )
I will pray healing for your marriage too. In fact, I will submit a prayer request on our website for you.
(MN: My wife and I will pray for you since we don’t need someone to pray for someone for us and are quite capable of doing so ourselves. )
LOL…I must have hit a nerve. (MN: LOL as well. Not at all. I always take advantage of an opportunity to go over the facts when it presents itself. You sound like a new reader and your questions and assumptions provided just such a opportunity. If you look through the postings and comments, you will see that the response is pretty standard for me. ) Yes, I also spend devotional time with my wife. In fact, personal devotion time is vital to the Christian walk, devotion as husband and wife are vital to the marriage. While you are watching your wife grow in her understanding of Hebrews, what does she watch you grow in your understanding of? Or do you feel the need to grow, my estimation is that you feel you have already arrived. (MN: I don’t think anyone who visits this site would come to that conclusion. )
Unfortunately, you have me mistaken, my church doesn’t breed a bunch of Sunday only saints. That’s the problem you run into when you generalize everyone with a large church because your little feelings were hurt by John Jenkins. I am so sorry he hurt you little buddy.
(MN: And I’m sorry you still don’t get it “little buddy.” It’s not safe to generalize absolutely since there are exceptions to every rule. But I do not believe I have been inaccurate in my estimation of the general spiritual life of the members of large churches of the ilk of FBCG, the Ecumenical Cathedral and Club New Birth. The fact that your pastor has a close tie with John and other like him says a lot about Donnie H. )
I hope it doesn’t take your wife another three years to decide to submit to the head of her household. (MN: Me too. But if it does, then such is the will of God. ) All your bible study and devotion time with her and John Jenkins teaching still has a stronger grip on her than you do. It’s sad that your house is divided like that. (MN: It’s even sadder that John has made it clear that he is more interested in a personal apology than the unity of my household. ) How can she be so committed to a person and an institution you hate so much? Interesting. (MN: I think it’s quite interesting as well. But primarily I see it as an opportunity for me to learn to deal with her as the weaker vessel [take a look at some of the previous comments], and for me to grow in understanding. As I have said often in previous postings, originally, as I was growing, I washed her with the water of the Word. Unfortunately it was a high pressure hose. We are now recovering from that huge mistake on my part. But of course, you would know this if you had read previous posting and not simply make assumptions and try to take little digs - while sounding pious. )
Thank you for your prayers! I appreciate them. Hey, don’t discredit the prayers of the Donnie H. saints, perhaps they will be valuable since your prayers have you on a three year waiting list for your wife to agree with you. (MN: Abraham waited twenty-five. No one ever responded to Jeremiah. And God never gave Paul what he was asking for. I am, it would appear, in very good company. Besides, surely you don’t believe the time frame of answer to prayers has anything to do with the effectualness of the prayers. I trust you understand that prayers are answered as they conform to the will of God. )
How do you know how close anyone is to John Jenkins? I have been a member of Hilliard’s church for years and have heard nothing about him. (MN: Hmmm. It seems Donnie H. isn’t telling ya’ll where he goes at night. ) How do you generalize based on your assumption of someone’s proximity to another person? (MN: I’m not generalizing. I speaking of those things that have actually happened. The fact that you don’t know about them doesn’t change anything. For example, I remember Donnie H. visiting one weekend. He had a Benz and there was a little flaw with the trimming. He parked it near John’s slot for a few minutes. )
Truth is, Hilliard is a good guy, you are wrong about him and the fact that you don’t know any of these people personally nor have you sat down to talk with them, is reason enough for you to keep their names and faces off of this site. Your issue is with John Jenkins, deal with him, leave everyone else alone.
(MN: I used to attend FBCG(otK). And the first time I heard of Donnie H. was there. During that time, John K. Jenkins had Donnie H. in as a speaker and as a revival leader. They were friends. Since I left, he appeared in the same capacity. At the grand opening of the Mausoleum, Museum and Memorial (that $55 million dollar building John had built) Donnie H. attended and left what, according to John, was a hefty check. You can hear the exchange on the Wednesday night celebration. The date is September 23, 2007, the evening worship. Donnie H. was there and said wonderful things about John K. Jenkins. Oh, and I did sit down with John on several occasions. And each time he used the worthless say “We just interpret it differently. And I’ve been pastoring for twenty five years.
My issue is not with John, Cashflow, or any of the others. My issue is with the things they teach and the sheeple they take damage. Incidentally, I did in fact get to know John K. Jenkins. He has the depth of a cookie sheet. He’s also quite arrogant - despite his sheeples’ claims to the contrary.
But again, the only things I put out here about the pimps is the stuff they teach and the things they do. By the way, you still haven’t addressed the issue of Donnie H. becoming an EXECUTIVE life coach, selling tickets at $175 a pop and hawking his paintings at the events. What about what I have said is wrong? )
Melvin, Melvin, Melvin!!!
“I made this posting before. However, there is a difference this time around. If you click on the book’s image, the link will take you to the book on Amazon.com. In other words, if you are interested in the book, you can buy it, easily and effortlessly. And if you buy it through this site, I will get a bit of a small commission. That commission will either begin help pay for the site or help pay for my new SR22, which ever comes first. The SR22 is only $250K, standard.”
Are you serious, NOT YOU! You must have a little pimp in you too. Don’t by the books people, Melvin is a pimp, he is just trying to get his 20cent commission to go toward the upbuilding of his stupid self-serving, character defaming website. BEWARE of the disgruntled pimp!!!
(MN: Eddie G, you’re wrong. I’m not trying to get the twenty cents to go toward my stupid self-serving , character defaming website. I’m trying to raise money for to get me a fully pimped SR22. The price of the plane is approximately $450,000. And I want to take delivery of the aircraft in a debt free position. If you want to contribute some money, send it to:
Get Melvin a Cirrus Ministry
23465 Anathema Lane
Bowie, MD 20718
But remember: In God we trust. All others pay with cash, certified check, or money order. )
I couldn’t let that one slide. So long, that was the last of my wasted moments.
Good………..that means you’ve wasted the last of our moments too.
you know what? i think it’s great Paula goes on the Tyra show. i think it’s great Jake goes on Dr. Phil. in the end God shall seperate the wheat from the tares.
for these people to come from behind their pulpits and hit the streets is wonderful . and if bishop jakes was here you know what he would say? “God prepareth a place for me in the precense of my enemies, keep on talkin!” lol
(MN: The only trouble, rw, is that when they were in the presence of what I assume is their enemies, THEY NEVER MENTIONED GOD. When Doctor Phil says you’re wired to be homosexual, T. Dexter doesn’t say anything. )
these people know that they have critics. they know critics are good. it enhances your daily self examination process. you do have one of those don’t you? lol
i mean come on saints we don’t sit and judge and criticize, hop from one vicious circle of imperfect people (let us tell it) and expose their nakedness without sitting under God’s microscope so that we can be told what needs to be fixed in us. do we? of course not!
(MN: rw, what you just said makes little or no sense. Please try again. )
RW-
2 John 1:9-11 Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into your house nor greet him; for he who greets him shares in his evil deeds.
How can we do what the scriptures says without judging or discerning?
Here is what scripture says NOT to judge:
We don’t judge the person Romans 14:10
We don’t judge by appearance John 7:24, Isaiah 11:1-3
We don’t judge their motives Isaiah 11:1-3
We don’t judge from our opinions John 12:47-48 We don’t judge those outside the church. 1 Corinthians 5:9-13
We DO judge their FRUIT Matthew 7:15-23. Fruit does not mean how many people attend their church, how much money they can bring in (steal), how many times they are on TV. It means, Do they stick to the Word of God at all times? Do they deliver the message of repentance and Christ only as our Savior? Do they confront the evil in this world with the truth? When is the last time you have heard a message from either of these people on sin, repentance and the Grace of God.
Some of this content comes from a class that is going on at our church right now on discernment. The leadership of the church realized too many people did not realize it is commanded of God to discern/judge those who say they speak in His name. Some were even falling to some of these false teachers.
Rw, I pray that you will study what the word says on judging the spirits and what our responsebility is to sound the warning.
God Bless.
Mel,
The sheeple NEVER use scripture. If they do it’s the usual misquoted drivel to justify the Pocket Picking Pimps.
Wait! PocketPickingPimps.org
I think I just may have created your sister site. Hmmmm! Let me see if it’s available.
Kyle