The Lord showed me in a very sober way that the White House, The Capitol building and the president of the United States are coming under a severe attack. The inhabitants of Washington D.C. will run through the streets as did the inhabitants of New York City on 9-11.
The last day o f June was two weeks ago. I just checked the paper and guess what? No one is running through the streets in Washington DC (I live right outside of DC). As a result, I can confidently state that the authentic prophet’s prophecy DID NOT COME TRUE. That means he is a false prophet.
A question: Will Aubrey man up and dump these clowns? Or is he going to find a way to explain away their false prophecy? Though I would love for him to prove me wrong, I’m betting he’s going to find a way to explain away their failure.
We’ll see. I’ll post any comment he has as soon as he makes it.
interesting you would bring this up. I was just reading the other day this passage in regards to false prophets and speaking in the name of the Lord.
Deuteronomy 18: 20-22 “20But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.
21And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken?
22When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.”
Maybe now there will be trust in this scripture:
All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.
(2 Timothy 3:16-17 KJV)
Too many of these false prophets are leading men astray. God’s Word is powerful enough to bring them out of this deception. God bless
Karsten
(MN: Nice site by the way. )
It is crazy to me how people will go to a man and ask them what is going to happen in their life when the BIBLE tells you, people pay thousands of dollars to go to NAME it Claim Confrenses just to get taken so that that Pastor or Bishop claims it at that persons loss.
I never saw Jesus charge anyone for food he feed 5,000 and not one person paid anything for it he healed people for free, I am waiting to see the FREE confrence you know the one that all these MILIONARE preachers could really afford, how about the you come and be healed through Jesus.
I even have a name for the Confrence the “REPENT” you think that will have a big following.
I just wanted to say that I read your blogs all the time and I feel the same way.
Much Love and God Bless You
Once again, some idiot claims a word from the Lord and the MNRs come out in force to defend it…
You can’t help but shake your head (and laugh under your breath) when you hear the latest huckster “prophe-lie”. You shake your head even harder when people defend these liars as though they were right but God was wrong!
Throw in the ever enterprising false prophets who charge money for their lies, then you’ve got a world that is becoming more and more jaded about the message of salvation through Christ.
And to think - all of this embarassment can be avoided if we actually picked up our bibles to read what God Himself says about our futures.
Nah…too boring, I guess
Yeah, i took a few minutes to view that “Meet the faith” episode with “bishop” Jordan, and you were right the other two guests pretty much chewed him up and spit him out. What i don’t understand is how is it that he is a bishop? He can’t even defend a fundamental teaching on homosexuality. Interesting
Can we please have links and names of the false prophets, so everyone knows to avoid these people by name?
That was a softball, IC - one only has to google any name listed in the “categories” column toward the bottom right-hand portion of this blog for starters…
Hey Melvin, i’m not by any means trying to open another can of worms, but I happened to bump into this gentleman’s website in which he claims to have debated your friend Don Preston on preterism…. you can take a look if you will http://www.kingmessiahproject.com/fp_main.html (and again, i’m not doing this as an attempt to debate anyone on the subject, i just found it interesting).
Thank you
(MN: Cans of worms are welcomed. If you do a search on “ICE + Preston” you should come up with some pretty good stuff as well. )
truthofgod please don’t bump into any of these guys anymore lol. Who claim that he did what! Btw I’m rubbing my eyes after reading his stuff thanks for nothing. As for you big Mel I couldn’t help you with anything only God can do that. About your “hyper-preterits” remark. Which came from Kenneth L Gentry,Jr by the way!
Hey Melvin,
Did these guys name a specific time when this stuff was going to take place? Just interested.
(MN: Before the end of June. Well, June is gone and I didn’t see a report on a mushroom cloud or folks running in the streets. )
Yes Mel end of June but did he say which year? Lol! You’re probably looking for it in the wrong year.
“Feed the flock, not on the flock.”
Pharisee!!! You don’t undrstand the prophetic!!! You think you are so much better than this man, but have you led 20,000,000 people to Christ like he has??? This is an anointed man of Gawd, and you will pay for mocking him!!!!!!!!!!!!
(/sarcasm)
What happened to the “Touch not Mine anointed” crowd? Usually, they’re out in full force, typing as fast as they can without proper grammar, capitalization, or punctuation.
But now?
(Cue chirping crickets)
They seem to be awfully quiet on this post. I mean, they must have something to say in this man’s defense.
Or not.
Aubrey Thomas is the only one that I’m surprised hasn’t shown up. If I remember correctly it is he who promised to recant if those prophecies didn’t come true. I expected to hear from him on July 1 because he seemed very honest in his position. He claimed to neither affirm nor deny these prophecies but that he wanted to remain open. He shouldn’t be embarassed to come here and admit these men were false given that he didn’t actually commit to them without the caveat that he would wait and see before he passed judgment. Aubrey if you’re reading this, it’s time to come clean. I desire to keep my view of you as an intellectually honest individual. Don’t let me down!
Greetings in the Name of our LORD & SAVIOUR JESUS CHRIST!
Part I–Aubrey Thomas, Please Repent and Renounce Receiving False Prophecy!
I agree that this was a false prophecy given by a false prophet Matthew Stephen, and brother Aubrey Thomas needs to repent of receiving this false prophecy based on the scriptures.
As a servant of the LORD, I come to you in Agape Love.
Aubrey, if you are reading this, PLEASE publically REPENT to Melvin and the pulpit-pimp audience because you publically came forth and said Matthew Stephen was a true prophet AND posted his prophecies, links. This makes your witness just as false as Matthew Stephen. I admonish you to repent ASAP!
PLEASE leave prophecy ALONE until the HOLY SPIRIT gives you full 100%, Beyond a shadow of a doubt Assurance and Conviction that the prophecy given is from HIM! Don’t share this prophecy or that prophecy without the HOLY SPIRIT’s approval…You can be accused of scattering and inspiring fear and not edifying and gathering! The reason you must repent and be restored is because, Aubrey, you followed another spirit and went into error…there is a penalty for doing this!
(MN: But what do you do with prophecies that have a time limit like the one given by the subject bozos. If what they are saying is true, you want to get to people to safety. But you won’t know it’s not true until it fails to come to pass. On the other hand, if a “prophet” tells everyone they need to repent, is that “prophecy” from God? Why would God need to speak supernaturally through someone when His Bible says exactly the same thing? What is the value added in having the “prophet” speak? )
Melvin, I am going to give you 2 links about one of the prophets mentioned by Aubrey in this blog in May by the name of Matthew Stephen. One I just came across earlier this Thursday (very long but very revealing), the other I saw about a month ago.
http://www.unleavenedbreadministries.org/?page=matthewstephen
http://patholliday.com/christograms/from_scribd/recently_uploaded/Todd-Bentley-Prophets-of-Doom-Matthew-Stephens-Curses-Lakeland-Revival.pdf
Melvin, you are free to share this information if you so choose.
Part II Diplomatic Contention in Brotherly Love
My call to repentance to Aubrey, however is NOT my endorsement against the 5-fold ministry and the office of prophet and apostle.
I believe and I know 3 direct sources that apostles and prophets still exist and operate today along with evangelists, pastors, and teachers. The 3 direct sources are
1. The Holy Spirit
2. The Holy Scriptures
3. I have received witness from other five-fold (I know this term is not in the Bible–Help me Brother GaryV, what’s a better term–ecclesi(the Called Out Church) or gift offices/ministries? or presbytery/elders(–we can go alot of different ways with this term with all of the denominations and titles??? Smile, another discussion)
My argument from the scriptures, I will use 3 sources to keep it short.
1. I believe the holy writ as mentioned in Joel 2:28-29.
I believe everyone agrees this was
a.The birth of the Church and
b. fulfilled Joel 2:29-28 at the Day of Pentecost, Acts 2 and
c. it is still being fulfilled(men and women are still getting saved and filled with the Holy Spirit! The outpouring of the Holy Spirit has not ceased for salvation and for working the works of the ministry. The sign gifts have not stopped.
2.Ephesians 4:4-14. Especially verse 13. Eph 4:13-14
(13) Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
(14) That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
The only new testament fulfillment of verse 13 was the 120 in the upper room…nothing since then has even come close in the true Church for 2,000 years, some may beg to differ….Azuza, etc.
But, here is the wisdom of GOD…just as GOD scattered men over the face of the earth and confused their languages at the tower of Babel..Genesis 11:1-9
…GOD did the same thing with the Church and scattered us “ALL” to where we are today. I define “ALL”(every denomination that believes the basic tenets of the faith).
The lesson learned is that when men are on one accord of one mindset, whether good or evil…GOD takes notice and HE will intervene.
3. Our Lord , Savior, and Messiah’s (reaching out to the Jews in the listening audience) JESUS CHRIST, YESHUA HAMASHIACH, the SON of the LIVING GOD’s very own words…. a. Matthew 7:20-23, key verse is 22 with the word “prophesied” and defined by Strong’s G4395
προφητεύω
prophēteuō
prof-ate-yoo’-o
From G4396; to foretell events, divine, speak under inspiration, exercise the prophetic office: - prophesy.
b.Luke 11:49
c.John 16:13-14
(13) Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
(14) He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
Key word is GLORIFY ME(CHRIST)! Too many doom and gloom prophecies are “puffed up” and exalt the man and not GOD!
Saints, GOD is STILL in the “warning” and “repenting” and “soul-saving business”! Remember this, Satan will send the “counterfeit” or the “false” before the real thing comes. We’re witnessing that with Lakeland That’s why so many false prophets are out here for “BROAD is the way!” If Satan can divide us over doctrine, well he is going to have a field day with dividing the body over prophecies, dreams, and visions!
The 3 keys to every “doom and gloom” prophecy is that when GOD is truly giving it to the man or woman,
1. It lines up with Holy Writ.
2. The Holy Spirit bears witness in your spirit.
3. The LORD gives a SIGN or a way of escape to HIS people or a way to prepare for the judgement to survive it. I.E. Noah’s ark, Abraham’s intercession for Lot’s escape, Joseph interpreting Pharoah’s dream and giving a solution, Moses and the 10 plagues with the Passover Lamb to escape death, Isaiah’s sign to Hezekiah, Jeremiah telling the people to surrender, Jonah’s warning for 40 days to Ninevah, Jesus sign to Peter that he would deny him 3 times and for us today the Matthew 24 signs and examples, Jerusalem surrounded, Abomination of desolation, even the LORD JESUS’ very return(see Matthew 24:23-27)…. There are many other examples and too many to list!
The devil has a job to do…steal (lie, deceive, dupe, etc.), kill, and destroy! And boy is he doing it too!
False prophets do not offer a solution, they lead you to themselves…not CHRIST! See Matthew 24:23-26
Let us not harden our hearts in these “last and evil days” to true prophets and true prophecy because when they give a word of warning…whether personally or nationally(only a proven, holy, credible man or woman of GOD who has been purged from leaven if ever gets to this level)
Thank you LORD for bringing this to my remembrance, a word of judgement given to a “city, state, or nation” only comes to pass through a REAL DEAL Major prophet! A lot of these guys like Matthew Stephen are operating in a familiar spirit and they WENT and were not SENT…BIG DIFFERENCE!
I would admonish each of you and myself included to know that you know that you know that you know that you are in the faith, connected to HIM, CHRIST JESUS and that you ABIDE in HIM and HIS Word! The spirit of the prophets are subject to the prophets. 1 Cor 14:32.
We are not to receive anything or anyword if we do not have the
1. witness of the Holy Spirit
2. Witness by Elders(that’s another discussion) and
3. The Holy Scriptures…I myself, prefer the KJV(another discussion)
It is OK and scriptural to JUDGE every vocal prophecy whether it comes by dream or vision (not the ones in scripture). JUDGE the fruit on the preacher, prophet, bishop, whoever that person may be! I know people who can give you an accurate word of knowledge but they live in sin! Does that mean, you follow that person or trust that person…Absolutely NOT! You still are to reprove sin and to confront sin. We must WATCH and PRAY!
Be Blessed and I await to talk to everyone this weekend!
Bretheren, for the past several weeks I have been working out of town, so forgive me for my tardy response to the false prophecy.
First, let me say that I posted 3 prophecies by 3 men–Erich Reber, Vincent Xavier, and Matthew Steven. Each of these men prophecied that there would be a terrorist attack on this country. Matthew Steven, however, went a step further and prophecied that in June, 3 massive earthquakes would hit the west, midwest, and the east followed by terrorist explosions in DC, NY, and San Diego. Thankfully, it didn’t happen.
I have always ascribed to the scriptural method of dealing with the veracity of prophets–Deuteronomy 13:1-5, Deuteronomy 18:22, 1 Corinthians 14:29, and 1 John 4:1-3. So, according to these scriptures, Matthew Steven is a FALSE PROPHET. Since Erich Reber and Vincent Xavier did not give dates for the fulfillment of their prophecies, I cannot as a Christian prejudge or condemn these men. Time will prove them true or false.
I think the debate about veracity of these 3 prophets has obscured the larger and more salient issue of whether or not real prophets exist in the church today.
If you will recall, Melvin offered a single scripture–Ephesians 2:20–to bolster his claim that prophets are now defunct. I rebutted with what I think was a very cogent argument citing Ephesians 4:11-14, 1 Corinthians 12:27-31, and Revelation 11:10 which deals a death-blow to the argument that prophets passed away at some unknown point in time. My rebuttal went unchallenged. Understandable since it’s hard to kick against the pricks.
In Christ,
Aubrey Thomas
Actually, I did respond. I said something like this:
I do notice though, that you do not seem to have answered the questions I put to you.
Welcome back, by the way.
Hey Melivlle,
Paul says that prophecy is to be “coveted” in 1 Cor 12 in which in His other epistles he says that the foundation has been laid on the “prophets”. So we must have two issues going on “one the prophets” those who predicted the coming of Christ and “two the Apostles” those who testified and were those who laid the direct evidence of Jesus’ death, burial and resurrection (i.e the 12+1). However there were many other apostles (little A in which Barnabas would have been considered) and many other prophets (Acts 14). So I think your argument (hence think) may be a bit jaded.
I am with Aubrey please provide the exposition of the scriptures that say “these gifts have ceased”.
(MN: I’ve said on several occasions that the gifts have not ceased. But what I maintain is that there is no particular need for some of them as a common experience in the church. Tongues, for instance, are for the benefit of the unbelievers, not the believers. Yet Pentecostals like Calvary Chapel and others insist on having “private” sessions of believers only, with Tongues (as they define them), prophecy, word of knowledge and word of wisdom (again, as they define them) on display. It’s interesting that groups like these can suppose that God is speaking through those gathered and yet He doesn’t correct some of the obviously bad doctrine they promote.
As several people have pointed out, for the church, familiar with Christianity and in possession of the Bible, what is the use of prophets - as you are defining the term? Perhaps if Joe Missionary were in the depths of the Amazon, explaining the Gospel to a tribe that has not had contact with civilization, there may be a need for the full range of Gifts.
Again, God can do whatever He wishes. But that doesn’t mean God will, or has to, do whatever we imagine He should do.
My main point: If a modern day “prophet” (as you guys are defining a prphet) speaks, he is speaking as one moved by the Holy Spirit. That means that which he speaks has the same quality and authority as the text of the Old and New Testament. If that is the case, how does what the speaker says compare to the Bible? The example I used last time is:
A prophet stands up before the church and says: “Thus says the Lord. I would have you call the Holy Spirit by a new name. Not only is he the Comforter, yea and the Advocate. Not only is He the Spirit of God, but he is also the Schwartz. ”
Tell me how you disprove the claim that we can now greet each other with the phrase “May the Schwartz be with you.” It doesn’t contradict Scripture.
It’s something new, you say? Of course it’s something new! Why would God tell us stuff that is already in the Bible? In fact, don’t the modern day prophets claim to have new and fresh revelation?
So far, all I have seen in those who exercise a supposed gift of prophecy is inane statements and arrogance.
May the Schwartz be with you )
I am saying the Bible does not contain all points of God’s communication. God has spoken indeed but is He still speaking outside of scripture today for certain needs? I would say yes. What if a great famine was to hit a certain part of the country and God wanted to commuincate that. What address would you find that. What if God wanted us to shut down one of our worship services and go to a park to minister to the needy? Can’t find a specifiic address for that one either. What if God really wanted to use divine healing in the believers and someone with the gift of prophecy stood up to procalim such a thing. You see God has spoken but if He is still alive He still speaks and maybe we should “covet” such gifts as Paul has commanded us to.
Finally can anyone show me in scripture where any of the Apostles says “hey the bible replaces the Holy Spirit” (who was to guide us in all truth….etc…) Where do we find that the sayings of any of God’s Apostles “hey once John writes a letter lets ensure that this will be called the canon and no more prophets or other gifts similar to these are necessary because well you now have a bible”?
You see I will say this very carefully but with full conviction. We have allowed the Bible to become the third person of the Trinity. You see we won’t say that because we will say the Holy Spirit communicates through the Scripture alone. If that is the case Melville and others. Lets stop praying and asking God for direction, because all He is going to do is send us back to the bible. Is God’s word true? Sure! Is it inerrant? Sure! Is it God speaking directly to us? Absolutely! Is it all we need? Not at all! The Gifts were given to the Body not the Bible. Lets ask God to open our hearts to trusting what we easily want to call “subjective”. Which I never believe any of the Gifts of the Spirit are defined as such. Much love
(MN: Unfortunately, your last paragraph requires nothing but subjective acceptance. Again, why can I not say that the Spirit has shown me that His name is also The Schwartz? )
Let me ask an honest question to you and others who would call my paragraph subjective. How do we have the canon of scripture we now call the bible? Was it subjective or objective? Where in the bible did the Father, Jesus, or the Spirit ever say “hey take these letters (Luke, Acts and the Epistles) put them in this order and call it the New Testament? You see we all must agree that the New Testament we now possess is subjective and was organized by men under the “subjective” Holy Spirit as all NT defenders would not argue against.
You see those who don’t agree with tradition actually agree with tradition because the bible they posess is from tradition. Also those who talk about subjectivism are in the same boat. Why? Because we believe under the guidelines of the Holy Spirit the canon was formed.
Aubrey Thomas - Only the 2 prophets of Revelation 11 are to come and that is straight from THE BOOK OF PROPHESY! We have no proof from scripture that there are prophets today other than those 2 who are to come. And the people you cite are not valid. (I’ll address those 2 nuts later in this comment.)
That Ephesians 4:11-14 speaks of prophets does not necessitate that there always must be “somebody” walking the earth in that office. The foundation is laid, the book of prophesy is complete and in Revelation we are told of 2 coming prophets, that is all. Nobody is to say a single word that adds to the book of prophesy, Revelation 22:18-19. So your effort to cite 1 Corinthians 12:27-31 is mute. The prophets came, the scriptures are complete, ending with the book of prophesy of Revelation and nothing is to be added. It speaks of 2 more prophets, that is all. To claim more prophets is to assert that more can be added to the book of prophesy and puts you on the wrong end of Revelation 22:18-19.
This is like me saying that sometime, somewhere in America somebody will die. There is a good likelihood it will happen and if it does not I can just tell you to wait a while longer. I can carry it to my own grave and self fulfill the “prophesy”. Or I could say one day a car will blow up near your house. If it does not happen in either of our lifetimes it could still be claimed my “prophesy” was legitimate because a car still might blow up in front of your house one day, even if it occurs after we are dead. These supposed prophets you named are as weak as your efforts to claim we have to believe the words of anything other than what is in scripture, by your claims we have some “prophets” we must find and listen to.
Other than the 2 to come as noted in Revelation 11, there are no others and the 2 you noted certainly are not them.
Enochwalked, if you read the discourse a few weeks ago about the aforementioned prophets, I neither received or condemned their prophecies. I chose to use Deuteronomy 18:22 as a litmus test. Matthew Steven’s prophecy didn’t come to pass; he is a false prophet. It doesn’t require “manning up” to follow what the scripture says.
Thanks for your admonishment to repent. It is always a good thing to walk in humility and repentance but in this instance, I see no reason to repent for not precipitously condemning or judging these 3 prophets.
In Christ,
Aubrey Thomas
Hello, Aubrey Thomas:
How about Deuteronomy 18:20 (NAS95S) as a litmus test?
Was not (is not) your associate, Matthew Steven, the least bit presumptuous (see v.20) by speaking in His name?
You have admitted that Mr. Steven is a false prophet. How easily that epithet flows from your pen, Aubrey!
While I certainly cannot see into your heart, the tone and tenor of your statement “I see no reason to repent for not precipitously condemning or judging these 3 prophets” hints of aloofness and disdain for our Father’s view of your three associates (one more time: v.20).
Aubrey, a thought on your use of precipitously:
Definition - (of an action) done suddenly and without careful consideration : precipitous condemning, precipitous judging.
What do you need to carefully consider or ruminate on concerning a prophet - presumably speaking for the mighty YHWH - who foretells of an event that does not come to pass??
You wrote: I think the debate about veracity of these 3 prophets has obscured the larger and more salient issue of whether or not real prophets exist in the church today.
Actually, the debate is whether one follows any of your three extra-biblical prophets at all.
One the one hand, we see judgment befalling those who follow false prophets prophesying falsely:
Jeremiah 14:14-16.
And on the other, judgment transpiring on those who follow false prophets prophesying truly:
Deuteronomy 13:1-5.
[Aubrey], while I was making every effort to write you about our common salvation, I felt the necessity to write to you appealing that you contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints. Jude 3.
It’s a done deal, Aubrey: we have the faith!
Study the Word, and run like - [insert] the place where most of mankind are headed - from your three associates.
Love (a decision, not a feeling),
Peter
Aubrey: Deuteronomy 18:20 is the death sentence carried out upon a prophet who failed the litmus test of verses 21 and 22.
Aubrey: Peter, a thought on your use of the word “associate:”
definition: (1) A person who joins with others in some activity or endeavor. (2) A companion or friend who is frequently in the company of another.
I am not engaged in any activity or endeavor with Matthew Steven or the other 2 prophets. I have never been in their company nor am I their friend or companion. Yes, Matthew Steven was presumptuous.
Aubrey: It flows no more easily from my pen than it does from yours. I was at least willing to defer judgement until after his prophecies failed. You, on the other hand, stoned these men while their prophecies were still in their mouths.
Aubrey: You are entitled to you opinion of me. Your use of vs 20 indicates that you would not have a problem casting the first stone at Matthew and the others. By the way, God’s view of the 3 prophets as well as His view of you and everyone else on the planet was expressed on Golgotha’s hill.
Aubrey: No further consideration is needed when a prophet’s words fail, hence my statement that Matthew is a false prophet.
Aubrey: They are not my prophets nor have I admonished anyone to follow them! I’m not sure what you mean by “extra-biblical” vis a vis these 3 men.
Aubrey: What does Jude 3 have to do with the ministry of these 3 men or whether or not prophets exist in the church today??
In Christ,
Aubrey Thomas
Melvin I honestly wonder why you and your fellow bloggers continue to converse with Aubrey Thomas? I’m beginning to think he’s a phony! Mr. Thomas answer this do you think Branham,Hagin,Copeland,Joyner are true prophets? Their prophesies fell to the groung with stunning regularity! By the way all four men are/were heretics! You sound like you went to Rhema Bible School or some other loony charismatic Bible school.
Hello, Ex-Wofer:
Why would I “continue to converse with Aubrey Thomas?”
Perhaps Aubrey needs a friend or two.
As far as I know, he is a brother in Christ.
Now, how about you?
So what exactly is he supposed to do fall on his sword? He admitted one of his guys was wrong and although I don’t agree with the juries still out attitude on the other two. I feel you folks are unnecessarily bashing Aubrey at this point.
Ex-wofer, I had hoped to avoid this kind of invective, but alas, your comment drips with it. You have discerned from my acknowlegement that Matthew Steven was a false prophet that I am a “phony” and that I attended “Rhema Bible School or some other loony charismatic Bible school.” Perhaps you are a closet false prophet.
I will answer your question if you can posit 2 scriptures that state that prophets were removed from the church. You can’t use Ephesians 2:20; it’s already been offered up.
In Christ,
Aubrey Thomas
Mr. Thomas since when do you lay the ground rules for discussion? Do you understand what a foundation is? A foundation is laid once. The apostles and prophets laid that foundation. Ephesians 2:20 is more than enough to refute your beliefs. You have a nasty habit of not answering questions. I’ll try again,do you think Branham,Hagin,Copeland,Joyner are prophets?
Ex-Wofer, I don’t set ground rules, but neither can I be compelled to answer questions from a guy who insulted me by calling me “a phony.” Besides, I’m admonished by scriptures to avoid such foolish questions, Titus 3:9. Such questions engender strife rather than godly edifying. However, as I said, I will answer your question only if you provide the scriptures I requested.
Concerning Ephesians 2:20–Jesus Christ is the chief cornerstone in the foundation. Did He cease? (MN: Aubrey, you’re goigng in the same circle you went last time. The more proper question is: Is there a second Christ. No one says he has ceased to exist. Once my wife was married to he, thre is only one Mrs. Jones. Does she cease? No. But there are not two or three Mrs. Joneses. You are actually arguing something no one here is presenting. Again, He is the cornerstone. Are there others who will also be a cornerstone? The Apostles and the Prophets are the foundation. Will more prophets and apostles come to ADD TO THE FOUNDATION? ) Quite the contrary! Every time the Word is sown in a furtile heart it reproduces after its kind. (MN: Obfuscation and arrogance don’t work. This isn’t futility. It’s a refusal to be led down a path of shifting meanings of words. It’s interesting that you insist on using the “If you were more spiritual, you would see this” defense. It doesn’t work. ) In fact, Jesus said of Himself: Verily, verily, I say unto you, except a grain of wheat fall into the earth and die. it abideth by itself alone; but if it die, it beareth much fruit, John 12:24. So, if you’re going to maintain that the ministry of the prophet is now defunct because the foundation is laid, you have to say the same about our Lord. (MN: The verse has nothing to do with prophets or the “words” of a “prophet.” It has everything to do with dying to self and following Him. The comparison is between the disciple [If anyone will serve me, let him follow me. For where I am, there shall my servant also be. It has nothing to do with one’s response to the worlds of some supposed prophet. But it is interesting to see how you twist the plain meaning of Scripture to make it say what you want it to say and thus defend what you need it to defend. One doesn’t have to be a prophet to die to self. It’s about lordship/discipleship. Do you think that if you throw enough verses out there we will be overwhelmed? Hardly. All you’re doing is showing how poorly you handle the Word. )
Finally, you seem to be double-minded, friend. On the one hand you exhort Melvin and fellow bloggers here to cease conversation with me, while at the same time goading me into answering questions about whether or not 4 guys are prophets, two of whom are dead. A double-minded man is unstable in all his ways, sir. (MN: That won’t work either. Attacks don’t answer the questions. )
Until you can come up with some scriptures or scripturally rebutt my post to Independent Conservative, I’m going to take your advise–not converse with you. (MN: You’re not conversing with him because you’re not going to post on this topic again. You have again demonstrated that you do not present a defense. You simply make the same statements over and over, behaving as if you have answered questions. Then you pretend that no one has answered your questions.
Consider yourself banned from this thread. I have better things to do than read and process your comments. )
In Christ,
Aubrey Thomas
Aubrey I also would add that Augustine,Irenaeus,Luther,Calvin,Edwards and a host of others never taught a continuation of apostles and prophets. By the way,Irenaeus was a disciple of Polycarp,who was a disciple of the Apostle John. Doesn’t it strike you odd that neither of these two men taught apostolic succession? Unless you want to recognize the pope?
Independent Conservative, the weight of scriptures seems to fall on the side of prophets being a part of the church today. Consider an exerpt from my previous post on the subject: Ephesians 4:11-14 outlines the 5 ministry gift, their purpose, and how long they will be viable.
Their purpose is found in vs 12:
1. The perfecting of the saints.
2. The work of the ministry
3. Edifying of the body of Christ.
How long they will be viable is found in vs 13:
Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ.
You have to admit that we ain’t there yet. My understanding of this scripture is that until the church grows up, all of the ministry will continue to function.
Also, God would never take away a gift after having given it to the church. Romans 11:29 For the gifts and callings of God are without repentance. The 5-fold ministry enumerated in Epesians 4:11 are Gifts and Callings.
In addition sir, I think the whole chapter of 1 Corinthians 12 speaks to the issues we are discussing now, particularly verses 20-30. Check out verse 21: “And the eye cannot say to the hand, “I have no need of you”; or again the head to the feet, “I have no need of you.”
Verses 27-30 lets us know that Apostles and prophets are the members spoken of in verse 21. What you and others here have done is say to certain members of the body of Christ, “I have no need of you.” You have, in effect, eviserated the body of Christ.
In light of these very clear scriptures and your lack of scriptures stating that prophets ceased, I’m amazed that you hold to such nonsense.
finally, I will ask you the same question that I asked Ex-Wofer; give me 2 scriptures stating that prophets ceased to be a part of the church. You can’t use Ephesians 2:20. In the mouth of 2 or 3 witnesses shall every word be established, Matthew 18:16.
In Christ,
Aubrey Thomas
Aubrey Thomas, I appears you are attempted to use a form of blanket response, to people who addressed you much differently.
Please read my comment to you in full once again and read my words carefully. Because your response fails to admit, that the book of prophesy its self closes the door to your assertions, that someone living right now must be in the office of prophet. You also miss that I made clear 2 witnesses (prophets) will come. And then the Lord will come and His judgement will be righteous, because it will occur after the 2 witnesses have come and been taken up into Heaven.
You accuse others of ignoring scriptures you cited in a prior response, when you have done the same with me. Either the book of prophesy lied and more supposed “prophets” can come along and add supposed “prophesies” apart from the 2 prophets to come, or the book of prophesy is true and we have all we need in scripture. Knowing 2 prophets are to come before the Lord’s return.
Granted, Mr. Thomas, the New Testament doesn’t explicitly say that prophets will cease, but then you need to ask yourself what was the purpose of the gift of prophecy and apostleship in the New Testament?
Was it not because the totality of the Scriptures had not been completed during the time of the Apostles and that the gifts of prophecy and apostleship were verification of the truth that the Apostles preached?
Now that we have the full word of God, we no longer require external confirmation of whether someone speaks for God, because now we can test all things by the standard of the Word.
By your reasoning, Peter had lost his mind, when he wrote:
Douglas K. Adu-Boahen,
Actually scripture DOES explicitly say that the type of prophesy Aubrey Thomas is seeking (foretelling prophesy, foretelling of future events) totally ceased! Per Revelation 22:18-19, nothing more can be added. Yes scripture closed the door on its self and it is written at the end of the last book. So all other claims from prior notations in scripture are fully rendered mute.
There is certainly prophesy today and plenty of it, known as forth telling prophesy. To speak forth from scripture.
The issue with Aubrey Thomas and others claiming there is “prophesy” today, is that they are talking in terms of “foretelling” rather than “forth telling”. There is NO MORE “foretelling”, but plenty of “forth telling”. Forth telling is to speak forth from scripture, foretelling is to claim knowledge of future events without necessarily citing scripture. Those false prophets Aubrey Thomas mentioned are saying predictions of future events in detail with no foundation from scripture at all. They are attempting to ADD to the book of prophesy. Adding their own granularity and details, that are not in scripture at all.
Looks like part of your comment didn’t make it, in regards to what you were saying Peter said.
IC,
Come on bro. Don’t do this to me man. Are you saying that Rev 22 is speaking of all prophecy? Man this is a serious leap from every view on this very point bro. John said you can’t add to “this” prophecy the this is the prophecy he spoke about in The Revelation not all prophecy bro.
Secondly let me ask you a few questions. The first being. Please give us the verse that says prophecy that is “forth telling” will continue (or even where does the bible ever describe prophecy in the sense of the New Testament as forth-telling) but “fore-telling” (which prophecy is) will cease?
Secondly what book of prophecy are we adding too? This is a very shallow handling of scripture and how the New Testament defines prophecy. What scriptures were those in Corinth “forthtelling” seeing they had no New Testament Scripture to “forth-tell” from.
Next the same word used in 1 Cor 11-14 which is “prophēteuō” is the same word Peter uses to speak of the prophecy which predicted the coming of the Messiah.
So for the sake of the audience can you give us examples in scripture where Paul or any other writer of the New Testament uses the word “prophecy” to indicate “forth-telling” from “fore-telling”.
All I am saying is that we must be very careful in using our presuppositions then pushing them upon scripture to make them conform to our presuppostions. The bible makes no such distinctions between “forth” or “fore”. If so can you show us where brother?
God does not speak to every issue the Church will face in scripture and God still uses prophecy as a way to speak to His people today. Nowhere does the bible even say that. It is funny that we can’t find a verse anywhere in scripture that says “God has finally spoke through the New Testament and we no longer need these gifts, just read your bible”. And if this is your position. We also don’t need preachers and teachers because we have canon and the Holy Spirit. Since a preacher and teacher is just as falliable as I am at interpreting the bible why give him a chance to jack it up for me.
Also not to mention that these same teachers come to the same bible and the fruit of that is 24K plus denominations. So maybe DTG and Msamu are right. All of these gifts have ceased because the canon is the maturity and the “perfect” thus all we need is our bible and the Spirit and forget that other stuff.
But I can’t go that far, thus prophets and prophecy is still for the church of God today. Why? Because we will continue to see dimly (don’t forget Paul died way before the perfect had come if the perfect is the canon) and we will continue to mature. Thus we continue to have needs and God speaks in His word and will continue to speak through the great gift given to the church called prophecy. If you take one gift out you must take them all out. If not we have a very unfaithful hermenuetic.
B&R, we disagree again.
I totally disagree with you. All efforts by men now to claim various events are nothing more than efforts to add to the end times prophecy of scripture.
If prophecy is to comfort and edify, why can this not come from scripture? Do you not understand that many of the prophets in scripture were repeating scripture? Was the call from every prophets’ mouth to “repent” something new or already in scripture?
What was written to the saints in Corinth was written before the book of Revelation. Again, your point is moot.
You have scripture which has affirmed itself closed. You are left with nothing else for instruction and prophecy of the end times, but hey you can chase these fakes all you want.
AND HERE YOU MAKE THE GRAND MISTAKE!!!
Now I’m sure you’ll deny it all day long, but sir, you’ve asserted that scripture is insufficient. You’ve moved yourself away from the stance of Sola Scriptura! The book of prophecy is closed and I have ALL I NEED in scripture.
Again, I’ve said prophecy today is forth telling from scripture, nothing more. Teaching and preaching from scripture. I never said people don’t need to learn scripture. So teachers, elders and evangelists have a role to share the truth FROM SCRIPTURE.
IC,
Where does the Bible speak of itself that it is sufficient for everything the Body of Christ will ever face?
B&R,
Scripture is full, complete and enough.
2 Timothy 3:16-17
Now do you feel any more scripture needs to be given? Do you think we need a Revelation version 2.0?
I find when the last book closed with the admonishment to add no more, that’s all. 2 Timothy 3:16-17 did not close scripture, but Revelation 22 did, because no more can be added and none can be removed from it. That is the book of Revelation, that means no more “new” revelation via supposed claims of foretelling “prophesy”. We have what we need for full equipping and there will be no more in the Office of Prophet till the 2 that the book of Revelation speaks of come.
I find no word by any man since scripture that holds the weight of scripture. That means absolutely no claims of prophesy since scripture hold validity that should be regarded by anyone. If it’s not from scripture, it is 100% invalid. The speaker has to be speaking from the foundation of scripture or words that are in full agreement with what is already in scripture (like if someone says “don’t murder” although they don’t cite chapter and verse), because all other words are invalid.
So IC,
You use one verse that was written before another verse and then use the later verse to force an interpretation on the prior one. Does anyone not agree that this is circular?
B&R, I know that scripture is the final authority. That Revelation clearly states no more after it. For end times prophesy and what the church should do, scripture is all that is needed. Now if scripture is the Sure Word and what we should look to and scripture has closed its self in the final revelation given to us in the book of Revelation, the matter is settled for me. Otherwise, rip Revelation 22 from your Bible, because you feel what we have is not enough and you need more.
I don’t need to rip it you need to interpret it! LOL
Well I was going to quote 2 Peter 1:19-21, IC. I have always argued (and I will put my hands up if this is a circular/strawman argument) but if the gift of prophecy is still here today, then every prophetic word ever spoken needs to added to the Bible, after all, ’twas the same Holy Spirit who inspired both, right?
Doug,
Come on bro. Tell me if everything Jesus spoke and did was not retained in the scriptures (John says so) then why would every prophecy? There were many prophets in the Old Testament, not all was recorded. It is funny I am sure that more than 4 of the Apostles prophesied but only 4 of them actually wrote scriptures while two gentleman (maybe 3 depending on Hebrews) were neither prophets nor were they apostles (Luke and Mark for sure). So yes this is a strawman arguement bro. There many prophetic words spoken or even allueded to in scripture (unless many of the prophets spoken of in the Old Testament were not prophets).
Not to mention many of the Old Testament writers were not prophets as it relates to the office but was called on by God (Nehamiah, Ezra for example) to record some parts of Israel’s history and it became scripture. So how about we say this if we want to follow your arguement.
Take out every word written in the New Testament of those who were not either prophets or Apostles and then do the same with the Old Testament. Since we have no clue if what they wrote was ever intended to be scripture (we can say for a fact that Luke never intended his writings to be scripture but only a testifying document to someone of authority to influence him for the sake of the Gospel).
So if every prophet didn’t write scripture what good were they as prophets given your arguement?
I also must ask how does 2 Peter 1 help your arguement? It doesn’t say “an every prophecy became scripture” or am I missing something?
Well stated Douglas! If foretelling prophesy is still taking place, what do we need the Bible for? We can just “follow the prophet” as the Mormons say!
That is a strawman IC and you know it bro. LOL! The Mormon god is unlike our God. No comparision. God says clearly “if they tell you to follow after other gods don’t listen”.
(MN: So then, you’re saying prophecies are good as long as they don’t contradict what the Bible says? )
Next let me ask you a question. If God wanted you or your assembly to do something very specific so that He can use you to do something very specific how exactly does that happen? Don’t forget the United States wasn’t even a thought in the mind of the Apostles so how does God communicate things with a specific church in a specific area? Where in the bible will you find such clear direction?
(MN: Here’s how He does it if I belong to a Calvary Chapel group:
During a believers only meeting called an Afterglow Meeting, we get together and exercise the gifts - anything from speaking in Tongues to interpretations, to Word of Knowledge and Wisdom, to prophecy.
It would be during that time that God would speak [literally speak] through a believer - through a Word of Knowledge [as they define the term], through a Word of Wisdom [as they define the term], a prophecy [as they define the term] or through an interpretation of Tongues [as they define the term]. The Holy Spirit, through these men and women, would communicate directly with us and provide us specific gudance in what to do.
Should I take my wife to the abortion clinic? Since the Bible doesn’t address abortion, I can get direct guidance from God through someone at the Afterglow meeting. In fact, God can speak directly to me at the Afterglow meeting by giving someone the knowledge that my wife is going to the clinic and then, just to make sure I got the message, He can give me a Spirit-inspired prophecy, warning me about what is goingo to happen if I take her there.
My son has decided he wants a sex change. Since sex changes aren’t spoken about in the Bible, the only way I’m going to know what God wants is if a prophet comes to me and says “Thus says the Lord, Melvin: Thou shalt not do a Bobbit on your boy. For surely I have great plans for him. Keep him as a Melvin and not a Melvina. Keep him as your son and not your daughter. Besides, you’ll save a bundle if you pass on this operation for him.
But wait - I don’t have to get as extremem as any of these. The Bible doesn’t tell the Christian how much money he is supposed to contribute toward the work of the Gospel. It doesn’t tell me how much I am to be involved in the lives of those around me. It doesn’t tell me what kind of car I am to buy, what color it should be and whether or not it shold be a standard or an automatic.
So how do I figure out any of them out? The same way I figure out most things. There is the idea of being filled with the Spirit, of being in tune enough with God that I am going to do what He wants, not because of somebody who says they speak fro God, but rather by God speaking directly to me through His Spirit and the illumination of His word.
And I do believe this is where His communications comes in - in the ILLUMINATION of His word; in the development of how to apply His word in our lives.
Psalms 119 says His word shows me how I should walk. His law keeps me from offending Him. It’s all about the Bible [Yes, I know the Bible wasn't complete when the Psalms were written] and God’s ability to illuminate my understanding of it. And even here, I’m not talking some deep esoteric meaning which only I can see.
Finally, the question you ask is really not a valid question. I don’t know everything about God’s will - in my life or in others’ lives. The fact taht God has something specific for me and the church to do doesn’t mean He has to tell us specifically what he wants done. There is God’s will that we know about and God’s will that we don’t know about - His revealed will and His secret will. It is presumptuous to assume that God is going to say “Melvin, I want you to start a Church in Dirt Poor Texas so that Efrem Zimmerman can come to the church and get saved. If God wants me to start a church he can very easily do what He did in Nehemiah - move on the hearts of the priests and heads of households. I, in faith, am to respond to that move on my heart.
)
B&R, the entirety of Mormon doctrine rest on the foundation, that Joseph Smith Junior received new revelation from God. That he received prophesy not already within scripture.
You have stated:
(If at any time you wish to recant that statement feel free.)
Just as the Mormons, you have asserted scripture is insufficient on its own and alone as the means Christians should use for instruction in their daily lives. Just as the Mormons you claim we need MORE via PROPHETS. Just as the Roman Catholics, you assert we need a new voice, to speak the words of God for us in this time, that we need more “word” than THE WORD in the Bible of 66 books. B&R, your view would REQUIRE that we WRITE DOWN all these supposed “prophesies” (in regards to the “prophesies” you feel are valid) and treat them as scripture, given they would have to be regarded as the Word of God. To forsake a true prophet and their words is sin. Or do you see in scripture where a person in the Office of Prophet could be ignored and it not be sin? Do you find in scripture where a person in the Office of Prophet gave prophesy and it was not written down? Not only written down, but re-written with even possibly more added, if efforts were made to destroy what was previously written down?
I totally disagree with you and while we’ve had many disagreement, I find most sorrow in your claims on this one.
I am glad you shared Melvin now let me respond with grace.
1. When Deutornomy was being written which bible was Moses telling them to judge false prophets by? KJV or the NASB?
(MN: I’m not clear on why you keep trying to make me say something that I have not said nor implied. Or course the Bible (66 books) was not written then. Who said the canon was complete at that point? More importantly, what has that to do with the discussion at hand? )
2. Your examples are extreme. The bible actually speaks to each of those issues very clearly and to be more candid this is common sense. Abortion, Smoking Crack, Sex Changes, Walking through Wal-Mart butt naked, using the bathroom on someone’s table. I think those things would be common sense and you are caricaturizing what I have said.
(MN: I’m not sure why you say they are extreme. As IndyCon points out, the Mormons are doing exactly what you are suggesting. God speaks directly to us. He gives us NEW REVELATION. There are twelve apostles working right now. You can receive new revelation directly from God. Oh, and by the way, you need to marry as many women as possible so you can get your universe on. None of this is outside the realm of happening. )
3.I gave a specific example that you never responded to. So let me try again. What if God wanted a specific church to give a certain amount of money to a certain family but no one in the church has ever met that family? How would God communicate such a thing? Or do you believe that he wouldn’t? You and IC’s God wouldn’t communicate that way because that isn’t in the bible. You see how your view of God is limited He is in a box and can’t commuincate with you other than through the scriptures.
(MN: Actually, it wasn’t a specific example. You said:
I responded with a specific example - the case of Nehemiah and folks being moved by God to (here’s a specific) return to Jerusalem, repair the walls and start things up again. How did He do that? He moved on their hearts. He does the same thing now. )
4. Let me ask something. When you pray and you ask God for guidance do you wait for an answer or do you just open your bible hoping to find the answer to your specific need or problem? Has God stopped communicating to His people in such ways today? It is funny that no one can find anywhere in the scripture where God says “hey check this out Bride of Christ, once the canon is complete and all of the bishops at the Council of Nicea agree which books belong and which books don’t then I will no longer communicate with you the way I have, shoot you have the bible you don’t need the Spirit to communicate, so just look for all of your answers in the Bible”! God has been very detailed even to the fact where the Messiah would be born, where Paul should go to the Gentiles, how the church should function and even what the end times would look like. But today He says “you have the bible”.
(MN: You seem to be confusing illunination with revelation. You also don’t seem to consider the idea of being led by the Spirit. But you are correct. No where in the Bible does the Bible say “The books that are here now are the only ones you should listen to.” Unfortunately, your line of argument does a couple of things. It presents a false view of how the canon came to be (a bunch of bishops didn’t simply decide which books to include and which not) and if accepted, you make a great argument for including all of the “lost” books of the Bible. Maybe you can explain to me why the Gospel According to Thomas shouldn’t be included. But again, you seem to be either confusing revelation with illumination, or insisting that God is coming out with new revelation even as we type. )
5. It is funny how you take the bible today (which David has no clue about) then read it back into the Psalms. Come on bro. Lets be fair. You are a dispensational is this a literal interpretation of Psalms 119. Which word was David talking about Malachi? The Gospel of Mathew? That is a very dangerous hermeneutic my friend and David nor the readers of these Psalms would agree with you.
(MN: I’m not at all clear what David would disagree with in my statement. Please clarify. What exactly, am I reading back into the Psalms? . )
6. Your last paragraph is really troubling to me Melvin. If God wants you to do something specific why wouldn’t He tell you specifically? It is funny when Peter is praying and caught up in the Spirit in Acts 10 a vision comes to Him. Did the vision say this “hey Peter I need you to find a Gentile, He is somewhere close to you, He is a good man, but you need to figure out who He is because I don’t tell you what to do specifically but I still want you to do it”. No, that isn’t what happens at all. God told Peter exactly what He wanted done and where to go and who to see. Just as Saul was told in Acts 9.
(MN: You’re really mixing apples and oranges here. You keep trying to make illumination the same as revelation. I have no problem with revelation taking place in Acts. But I donot believe such events are normal, either for those after the Apostles nor for us.
7. Finally. Lets go back to a faithful method of interpreting the Scripture. Does the bible say that the Gifts given to the church for building up and edification will cease once the canon of scripture is complete? Is this found anywhere in the bible?
(MN: You’re making yourself look somewhat foolish here. I have said, even during this conversation, that I do not believe the gifts have ceased. I have also said that I do not believe the gifts, as described, have a normal use within the Body of Christ. Go back and take a look at it here in this thread, in previous threads, and even in a couple of posts.
If not then you must admit that this gift is still for the body of Christ and that prophecy in the New Testament contains both fort and fore-telling. If not you aren’t being fair to the text and your experience has clouded biblical truth the same thing you blame others of doing. If we are to hold to reformed tradition of Sola Scriptura we must hold to it consistently.
(MN: I don’t believe you will find too many reformed folks who would agree with you. Sovereign Grace might be the exception. But that doesn’t make your case any stronger. We can’t have Sola Scriptura if we also include “fresh revelation.” The fresh revelation MUST have the same authority as Scripture. The best you can do with your position is “Sola Scriptura - except when God speaks through a modern day prophet.” You can’t have “fresh revelation” and Scripture Only any more than you can have a sexually active virgin. )
So please provide a very clear exposition on how we can come to the scriptures and say that these gifts are no longer for the church. If you say some have ceased you have to say all have ceased (or at least I could make a case since you have opened a door to some of the ceasing) and I am going for teachers and preachers to have ceased also.
(MN: Okay. I hope you have spent enough time trying to make me support something I didn’t say. )
One last thing. If we want to talk about abuse. Which you have used extreme abuses of the gift as examples. I say teaching and preaching are the most abused gifts in the entire world. Their are more false teachers than their are false prophets for every false prophet there are at least 100 false teachers (rather done on purpose or not).
(MN: And your point is what, exactly? )
Melvin who has said anything about New Revelation? Trace every comment I ever wrote and see if I am talking new revelation whatsoever. Especially Revelation that would fly in the face of all other revelation already given to the church.
(MN: Good. Now we are beginning to define our terms. According to what you have been saying, prophecy is presenting new revelation. It is presenting something that is not in Scripture. Your example about the bible not covering specifics, means God has to speak about specifics. If that is not already in the Bible, then it is something new. Prophets speak as those moved by the Holy Spirit. The Bible is written by men who were moved by the Holy Spirit. Same source, same authority. The Bible is revelation. The men being moved by the Holy Spirit present revelation. The Bible is “old” revelation. You appear to be presenting the view that God presents new revelation (modern day prophets speaking as those moved by the Holy Spirit. )
By the way you have made it clear that these gifts (Prophet which is a gift Ephesians 4) has ceased. Your entire statement oh let me post it to make sure we aren’t talking past each other:
“Should I take my wife to the abortion clinic? Since the Bible doesn’t address abortion, I can get direct guidance from God through someone at the Afterglow meeting. In fact, God can speak directly to me at the Afterglow meeting by giving someone the knowledge that my wife is going to the clinic and then, just to make sure I got the message, He can give me a Spirit-inspired prophecy, warning me about what is goingo to happen if I take her there.
My son has decided he wants a sex change. Since sex changes aren’t spoken about in the Bible, the only way I’m going to know what God wants is if a prophet comes to me and says “Thus says the Lord, Melvin: Thou shalt not do a Bobbit on your boy. For surely I have great plans for him. Keep him as a Melvin and not a Melvina. Keep him as your son and not your daughter. Besides, you’ll save a bundle if you pass on this operation for him.
But wait - I don’t have to get as extremem as any of these. The Bible doesn’t tell the Christian how much money he is supposed to contribute toward the work of the Gospel. It doesn’t tell me how much I am to be involved in the lives of those around me. It doesn’t tell me what kind of car I am to buy, what color it should be and whether or not it shold be a standard or an automatic.
So how do I figure out any of them out? The same way I figure out most things. There is the idea of being filled with the Spirit, of being in tune enough with God that I am going to do what He wants, not because of somebody who says they speak fro God, but rather by God speaking directly to me through His Spirit and the illumination of His word. ”
(MN: None of these have anything to do with the gifts ceasing. )
So what exactly were trying to convey as it relates to Prophets and Prophecy? Maybe I am confused Melvin. I only answered what you wrote.
(MN: Yes, you are confused. Use what I have said about the gifts, not what I said in response to your comment. Here for instance:
You can see the comment here.
Or try this posting from some time ago:
Again, I’m not real clear on why you maintain that I am saying the gifts have ceased. )
Now can you find where I said anything at all about a “fresh revelation”? Someone, anyone point that out to me. But I do find where you say that prophecy as I have described it is no longer needed (or at least you are strongly implying this given your response to Calvary Chapel)
Once again IC your arguements are really bad. Let me ask you a question IC. Do you believe that everything Jesus said and commanded was written down in scripture?
And let me explain how God has me do something “very specific”, He shows me it in the Bible! Not somebody claiming to be “prophet” coming along with some “word” not in my Bible.
For example, I used to be part of Eddie Long’s club. How did God tell me that specifically not only was Eddie Long preaching another gospel, but that I needed to leave Eddie Long in particular? The Holy Spirit let me see the full truth of 1 Timothy 6, that was all, sufficient and enough for me to know the very specific actions I needed to take.
Now I found with that and all experiences God communicates to me through His Word and it to be sufficient. It is the Sure Word and I will follow no other claiming they’ve got some “new word”.
Brothers,
It seems as though extremes are definitely running the “anti-prophets/prophecy” claim. Other than isolated passages of scripture being cited and then made to mean what we want them to mean, the only other evidence goes something like:
“So if someone says I should parachute off of the tallest building in my city with ‘Jesus is the Way’ spray painted on my chest, then I should do it since it doesn’t contradict the bible.”.
This is not a biblical argument but rather begs the question. It is actually a mischaracterization meant to stir emotion rather than to actually present an argument.
Are we obfuscating rather than really dealing with the issue? Are we failing to define our terms? Are we mixing categories? Are we using our experiences to judge truth? We would not accept this from anyone arguing against our view. So then, why are we doing it in favor of our view?
I’d like to make a few observations:
1. If someone exercises a “gift of prophecy”, that does not make them a prophet. We don’t use that standard with any of the other gifts. We don’t say that someone who exercises the “gift of helps” is an angel and then also expect them to be infallible in their helping. We wouldn’t say that if I failed at my attempt to help, then that automatically makes me a “false-helper”. None of you are arguing against the “gift of teaching” but I would guarantee that none of you thinks that any teacher is infallible. Why then hold this standard to only one out of the 29 or more spiritual gifts?
2. We have direct knowledge of the gift of prophecy provided information to the Body in the book of Acts. Once (in Acts 11:27-30) we see it used to tell of a famine which spurred the church to providing aid for one another. Another time (in Acts 20:22-23; 21:10-14) the gift provides clear and detailed information as to what will happen to Paul and in this case it was seemingly not intended to direct any certain action. The gift seems to have a wide range of usages. And what here was either affirmed or denied by the scripture that they did have, namely the Old Testament? The standard of being affirmed or denied by scripture had to have been in place then as you all say it is now. Right?
3. I am not arguing for or against prophecy. I am arguing against the arguments as being illogical and inconsistent.
4. What about the term “normative” or “spectacular”? Normative is a relative, however, valid term to describe the frequency of the occurance of the gifts in general. However, spectacular is not a valid term. Many want to hold a mild cessasionist view by using this category but it is invalid. How can any gift of the Spirit of God not be spectacular? Or are we using this term to mean visibly astonishing? Even if that is the definition, does it really fit?
5. I agree that “signs and wonders” were used to validate the message and at times the messengers. But I fail to see how that is no longer necessary. Sure, some will never believe no matter what they see (Abraham told the rich man this very thing in the parable that Jesus taught), but this doesn’t mean that the Spirit no longer does this. With all of the “New Atheist”, “Gnostic Gospels”, “Todd Bentley”, etc. fanaticism and promotion, I dare say we need the validation of the true Word of God all the more now.
All I’m saying gentlemen is that in spite of all the abuse and misuse that we see and in spite of all the traditions that we so desperately want to hold on to, we must be as faithful to the “whole counsel of God” on every issue concerning the work of the Spirit of God in the lives of the Body!
By the way folks, I suspect we are about done with this thread. If desired, I am considering creating a posting to handle some more of this.
The frustrting part of this thread is that it is getting kind of interesting. But it has been going on for quite a while and the comments are getting rather long.
The good thing is that we have not started going in circles with the discussion.
Anyone want to see a posting on the topic?
Melvin
Bro. Lawrence D,
Many thanks, Brah, for that last post you made—-as in reading/following the dialouge from afar, I was wondering the same things myself down to a tee. Much of it is akin to John Piper/Wayne Grudem’s stance (As well as Sam Storms) on the issue of prophecy. Again, appreciate the balance. And same with B&R on his thoughts. Shared some of my thoughts on the issue earlier this week
Apart from that, Brah, thanks for the post…..
B&R,
Question 1000039201232:
I believe EVERYTHING HE COMMANDED IS IN SCRIPTURE. Not everything He said while on earth in flesh (while it would be nice to know everybody he said hello to and when, it’s not really information a Christian needs to know as commands for our daily walk with Him), but everything man needs to know that is commanded of man is in scripture. Everything!
See B&R, the difference between me and you is that you’re looking for more to be said while I feel it was already said. You’re waiting for another miraculous instruction, I find scripture to be the full, complete and final miraculous instructions, all well documented. For me scripture is all I need and final, while for you it’s scripture plus whatever some so-called prophet can convince you to believe.
I think it’s done, either you see scripture as the closed and final sure word or you don’t.
Bring it on Sucka! LOL
Hey Melvin. Can you show me in the scriptures where the bible says “these gifts were used to validate the Gospel”? I see where it says these gifts are given to build up the church and edify the body but never to validate the Gospel.
(MN: Take a look at the pattern with the apostles. At the gate beautiful. A person was healed, the Gospel presented. On the island after the shipwreck, Paul didn’t die from the snake bite, the Gospel was presented. Paul raised Dorcas, the Gospel was presented. The prison was miraculously opened - the Gospel was presented to the guard and his entire family. As I said, you see over and over again that the “sign” gifts were used to validate the Body. Before Jesus’ resurrection, he sent the disciples out. They worked signs and wonders. When Jesus sent the disciples out prior to His ascension, He pointed out that the signs and wonders would follow them. They would follow in order to validate the disciple’s claims. I don’t think I’m making much of a stretch, if any at all, to say that they followed for validation.
Is there a phrase that says “The gifts were there to validate the Gospel”? No. Can I safely come to that conclusion based on the contents of the Bible? Yes.
Plus I’m not sure you can make such a blanket statement about the gifts being ONLY for the edification of the believer. 1 Cor 14:22 says:
Notice, tongues are not for those who believe but for the unbeliever. But prophesying is not for those who believe not.
But if your statements about prophecy are true (only for the edification of believers), why did Johah prophesy to the folks he did? And why were the prophets sent to speak against Israel (the northern kingdom)? None of the folks they talked to were believers.
I suggest there is more to “prphecy” than the stiff and sigular reading you are giving it. I suspect there is more to the gifts than that which you have laid across it.
Wait! Let me guess. You are going to say something like: Well, the healings you see in acts aren’t a part of the Gifts of the Spirit. And the prophecy you see in the OT isn’t the same as the prophecy described in the NT. )
I believe in everything you said:
1. The bible is close
2. The bible is final
3. The bible is sure
However God still speaks to His elect directly as He always has. (MN: What do you mean by “speaks directly”? In what sense are you saying that God “speaks directly”? )
We are to study and read the scripture and we are “covet” prophecy also.
Unless Paul was wrong?
You wouldn’t say that would you IC? So exactly what did Paul mean?
BLD,
Because scripture says someone claiming prophesy has to be 100%.
Regarding prophesy in scripture, it made scripture all that it is. And scripture is complete. So if some people come to bind our hands for our testimony on Christ, why do I need a prophet to tell me about it, when from scripture I know to let the Lords’ will be done?
I can’t think of a single case, event or occurrence where scripture was not sufficient. Have you had a time where scripture was not enough?
I could say we have so many sick people in the hospital that I need the gift of healing right now, but God said no. But in regards to prophesy that foretells future events, we have it IN SCRIPTURE and need no more, otherwise we need more scriptures and so Revelation needs more pages added to it.
By the way, I’m going to leave this open until I go to bed tonight or until I get up tomorrow morning. I will try to make sure I post the comments in as expeditious manner as possible That way you people get to fuss back and forth to your hearts’ content.
B&R, if scripture is closed and final, please tell me what you’ve heard God speaking to you that is not in the Bible?
Again, Revelation comes AFTER any and all things written by Paul. So Revelation 22 ends and settles it. No more foretelling prophesy, it’s all be written down in scripture. You’re like telling me to pay “tithes” after we were later told to give freely.
IC,
You completely ignored my post because your mind is made up and that’s a shame. I did not argue for prophecy. I argued that the arguments being made against were illogical and inconsistent. (Remember point #3) As to your points:
1. Here’s a text of scripture. (I Kings 13:1-25) Read it and tell me was the prophet, who brought the other one back, a false prophet of God or a true prophet of God. Remember he gave two prophetic words. One was 100% false and one was 100% true. So what was he? The bible calls him a prophet. What do you call him IC?
2. Scripture is never sufficient even if I tried to say that in my case it was. This is a trick question which wouldn’t prove or disprove the validity of the gift of prophecy. Check your heart IC! You weren’t trying to get at the truth. You were trying to denounce me because you believe I don’t agree with you.
3. No one possesses any gift of the Spirit as their own possession. No one now, nor in biblical days could use a spiritual gift of their own will. The Spirit gives the gifts severally AS HE WILLS! So why would you think that someone with the gift of healing should be able to go into a hospital and raise up everyone. Even Christ didn’t heal all the people in His own hometown. Was he without the Spirit’s power? GOD FORBID!!! Peter couldn’t heal all. Neither could Paul, Timothy, Barnabas, or any other apostle or their associates! This is a “false dilemna” fallacy in your argument. So according to you, not only do gifts of prophecy have to be 100% but gifts of healings should clear hospitals. You haven’t thought about this much I see(IC)!
I know that if you follow your normal course on these subjects, you will ignore my questions and argue as if your case is already proven. IC, if you were really positive about your position, then you would have no need to do this. You would be able to state your rebuttal without assumptions or fallacies in argumentation. But alas, you would have to lay down a tradition to do so and we both know how hard that can be.
By the way IC,
Give me a call before 6:30pm my time and we can talk it out over the phone.
My brother Mark spoke well on this matter.
Why Pentecostalism is not of God.
What about my answers IC?
By the way,
In regards to my previous post to IC number #2 should read “Scripture is never insufficient”. Sorry for the mixup.
I actually agree with your theological position and am praying that God will raise up such gifts of prophecy in our local assembly. God bless. I was once a cessionist but have crossed over. Don’t punt me Melville, but theologically I must say that Aubrey and I have valid reasons. Ephesians 4 leaves us with two options. Either all of these gifts cease or none of them. Either we have reached “full maturity” or we are still being “perfected” and all of these gifts are used to build up the body (1 Cor 12).
IC you said,
“(If at any time you wish to recant that statement feel free.)”
Why would I recant. Let me bold it to ensure you got it. EVERY THING THAT GOD WANTS TO COMMUNICATE TO US IS NOT FOUND IN SCRIPTURE. That is why we pray and ask for God’s direction. Why ask God for direction (which I hope you do) when it is already found in scripture?
B&R,
May the Lord help you brother.
Maybe because we’re still trying to make sure we understand how to do as we should as instructed in scripture? Once I thought I was doing something as I should and the Lord showed me otherwise all from scripture and all while I continued asking Him to guide, as I’ve explained. And I could go on with all the events of my life and how the Lord showed me what to do FROM SCRIPTURE.
I guess this is not happening for you? Black and “REFORMED”, yet looking for an answer not in scripture?
You have stated with empahsis:
Well I have something for you Mr. “Reformed”: What is sola scriptura? (If the Lord wills, may it help you see the truth.) Chasing words of men outside of scripture is what Sola Scriptura put an end to, for those willing to stand on scripture alone.
B&R, I say to you as Martin Luther once said:
Now notice what you said in capital letters above and the statement of the cult known as Roman Catholicism:
You in your error are speaking just as they speak.
If whatever someone says must be in 100% agreement with the Bible, than what we need is not some new “prophesy”, but what is from THE BIBLE.
Well of course not, and we know that because…it’s in the Bible (John 20:30-31). Ultimately I reject modern prophecy, be you Reformed or otherwise, but by nature, it means the Bible isn’t enough. Call me a Bibliolatrist, but I believe in the Bible ONLY - no prophecy, no hidden knowledge, no new revelation - just a Book!
Bro. Aubrey,
Since I defended the fact that you hadn’t promoted these men but had just withheld judgment, I wonder if you will allow me a question without feeling as though I’m attacking you.
I was wondering what do you feel a prophecy is supposed to provide for a Christian today?
I ask this question because I did reject the prophecies out of hand. Not because of a belief that prophets don’t exist, but rather because of the content of the prophecies that were posted. Nothing in them appeared to be edifying to the Body of Christ. If a catastrophe is coming in which I as a believer die, then aren’t I to rejoice that I will soon be with Christ? What other reaction could the Body have? Do you see what I’m getting at?
Can someone tell me, what death did Adam die????
Isa - Adam died because he lost the connection he had with God. When Adam died we all died and only through Christ are we able to obtain life.
See 1 Corinthians 15 for details. Also note that in Genesis 3 once Adam sinned, he was blocked from access to the tree of life.
With God, life is life eternal with Him. Death is to be under His wrath in eternal condemnation. I don’t know about you, but I don’t want an eternity of condemnation and suffering in the lake of fire.
Independent Conservative: thank you for your answer. If I understand correctly Adam’s death was not a natural death? I’m studying Genesis and it appears to me that Adam was created mortal not immortal, (I’ve always heard Adam was created immortal, I can’t find scripture to support Adams immortality) since Adam didn’t die the day he ate the forbidden fruit a spiritual death lines up with scripture, so now I’m confused about physical resurrection. Unless proven in scripture that Adam was created immortal, question: why would God raise a body physically that was created to return to the dust? And if the death of Adam was spiritual, would not resurrection by Christ Jesus be spiritual?
This is killing me, some understanding would be appreciated.
Hi Isa,
Adam did eventually have a physical death. We have to assume, that if he were obedient God would have at some point allowed him to eat from the tree of life and Adam’s physical would have been changed to immortal. But this is all speculation, bottom line is that God foreknew Adam would fall and man would need a savior. Which is why He had given His Son the elect before the foundation of the world and Christ knew He would be the sacrifice for our sins, Ephesians 1.
As I mentioned before, death is to be under condemnation from God. So Adam did immediately die, in the sense he lost his connection to God. And although we are born in flesh and we call that “alive”, because of Adam’s fall all of humanity fell, we actually are dead until we are born again in Christ. All are under condemnation till they believe on Jesus, John 3:18.
When Christ returns, our physical bodies (if we are physically dead) will be raised, because our turn to immortal bodies will mimic the resurrection of Jesus. As His body raised from the dead and was glorified, so will ours and the mortal will put on immortality. Christ’s resurrection was physical, when His body died His Spirit was alive and the body raised on the 3rd day, 1 Peter 3:18-20 and 1 Corinthians 15:4.
The sinner suffers both the physical and spiritual death. Their body dies and their spirit is condemned. The saint never feels the sting of death, once the body dies the spirit lives and when Christ returns He will raise the body and it will be changed to immortality, a new body.
This is why Jesus is called among many other names, the 2nd or last Adam. He being God in flesh succeeded where Adam failed. The first Adam caused all men to die, but the 2nd/last Adam (Christ) brought life.
The flesh of this world can’t inherit the kingdom of God, it is perishable, but we who inherit the Kingdom of God will put on immortality. Until we get our spiritual bodies when Christ returns, we live in the Spirit and are with Christ. This is all detailed in 1 Corinthians 15 and 2 Corinthians 5:1-10.
Bro. Lawrence, I appreciate your objectivity and balance.
Prophecy is not only for edification but also exhortation and comfort, 1 Corinthians 14:3. Here are a couple of definitions I found for exhortation: (1) a communication intended to urge or persuade the recipients to take some action. (2) A strong urging or warning; an urgent appeal for action or change.
typically, an uttered prophecy would be judged, if given in a local assembly, by other prophets and elders, 1 Corinthians 14:29. In the case of Matthew Steven, there was no benefit of having the corporate judgement of the local assembly. Therefore, I chose to follow Deuteronomy 18:22, while at the same time making sure that there was no open sin in my life. You discerned right away that the prophecies were false, and hopefully, you too were walking in faith and righteousness.
In the event that the prophecy was true, those who died who were righteous would have indeed gone home to be with the Lord, but those who were walking in sin and disobeidience and refused to repent, would have died in their sins.
Thanks for not holding the coats of those who would stone me.
In Christ,
Aubrey Thomas
Bro. Aubrey you typed:
“Prophecy is not only for edification but also exhortation and comfort, 1 Corinthians 14:3. Here are a couple of definitions I found for exhortation: (1) a communication intended to urge or persuade the recipients to take some action. (2) A strong urging or warning; an urgent appeal for action or change,”
I can agree with this. Prophecy does service the function of exhortation and comfort as well as edification. But in the New Testament context I don’t see this as a function that serves unbelievers. So, in regards to the prophecies that you posted, this conviction helped me to be able to immediately (okay after reading it a couple of times) to reject it as not coming from God. I saw nothing in the prophecy of any benefit to the believer but maybe I missed something.
So I guess my questions are, is it true that prophecy is for benefit of believers only? And if not, can you show me or tell me what in those prophecies was of a benefit to believers?
Actually BLD,
What say ye on this:
24 But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or outsider enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all, 25 the secrets of his heart are disclosed, and so, falling on his face, he will worship God and declare that God is really among you.
B&R,
Man thank you for the correction! Wow, I had completely forgotten about that verse. (Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at anytime we should let them slip Hebrews 2:1 KJV)
However, in regards to the prophecies mentioned in the previous post I’ll make two observations:
1. The intent of these prophecies seems to have been towards believers but with more of something that unbelievers should have been worried about. This was more to the point that I was trying to make with Bro. Aubrey.
2. This wasn’t a case of prophecy being given and an unbeliever “entering” and hearing something that would bring conviction. These were public. Honestly, though, this may be a minor point.
Thanks, also, for giving me the opportunity to bring clarity to my statements.
Stone you, HA! Now discussion on a blog is equivalent to STONING
…
This false prophesy being discussed, where in it was the call to repentance to unbelievers? The false prophets spoke of coming calamity, where in their claimed prophesy did they say clearly that unbelievers need to repent? Did they claim that if the people cover themselves in sackcloth and ashes in repentance that perhaps the disaster might be averted?
This is the “mode of operation” of people like Mr. Thomas and his ilk. That is if you criticize people like him well that means you “hate” them. The same old same old,if you’re critical then you’re divisive! If Mr. Thomas thinks I’m being “invective,” he wouldn’t have lasted two seconds with Luther. Luther was notorious for calling people idiots. For gosh sakes he called the pope the devil! Who in the world is talking of stoning you Aubrey? I guess we dare not ask anymore of Aubrey. But then doctrine divides doesn’t it Mr. Thomas? Especially when it doesn’t jibe with your WOF/Apostolic-Prophetic nonsense! If I really hated you Aubrey I wouldn’t have commented at all. I would’ve let you stay in your error!
Well Ex-Wofer, I’m told that I am “touching Gawd’s anoooointed” all the time
!
Well Indy Con,welcome to the club.
(MN: IndyCon. I think he just got a modifed moniker! )
B&R - Just drp the “Reformed” tag then it be easier to understand some of your comments.
I take it you don’t think much of Reformed Charismatics then
On a serious level, that is quite a tough line to drop on someone. By that reasoning, John Piper, C.J. Mahaney, Josh Harris and Wayne Grudem (to name a few) are very inconsistent.
I may disagree in regards to the charismata with those guys (and by extension) with Lionel but fact remains: he still is Reformed. I agree that charismatics are wrong, but as long as we hold to a solid theology in the essentials, I don’t see why he isn’t Reformed.
Cushie,
My brother that comment is rude, insensitive, inflammatory and just plain unnecessary. Are you saying that Lionel believes what he believes simply because he’s black? So is Mel, IC, and me. Aren’t you? You should apologize immediately man!
Why should I do that Cushie? Do you know what I believe? What of Reformed Theology do I disagree with that you are making such a statement? Is it the 5 points? Got that! The 5 Solas? Got that! What do I lack? Infant Baptism? Sure! Sticking to the Psalms? Definitely! What about the confessions? I am of the London 1644 persuasion! Don’t too much fool with the Westminster though much I affirm. What about the Chicago Statement of Biblical Inerrancy? What about the Together 4 The Gospel Affirmation and Denials? How do I train my Son? Glad you asked. By the Truth and Grace Memory Books which are a Catechism from http://www.founders.org which are Reformed Southern Baptist (what most closely I affilate with). You see let me ask you Cushie what about the Reformed Faith must I hold to be acceptable by your type? Who are my favorite pastors:
1. Piper
2. MacArthur
3. Ken Jones (maybe one)
4. Tim Keller
5.MLJ
6. Spurgeon
7. Sproul
8. Mahney/Harris
9. Tom Nelson
10. All of my PCA brothers.
Would you like me to list authors? Books I read? Books I recommend? Which Systematic Theology to read? Which Biblical Theology (Old or New Testament) to read? How about my eschatology? Ecclesiology? Am I covenantal? Dispensational? Tell me Cushie exactly what are you saying?
Brethren,
I’ve been following the discussion just about from it’s inception, and I must say that it is a lively one indeed…Just wanted to drop in and say how much I appreciate the candor of all…I am not here to defend my position, although I am one who does not believe that the gifts have ceased…I will say that for the last couple of years I’ve been looking very closely at a view called concentric cessationism, and it has proven to be very intriguing…If I’m not mistaken, I believe that this is the view that Mel/GaryV and others lean towards (please correct me if I’m wrong). For anyone who’s interested, here is a writing from Dr. Wallace, who many would consider quite a reputable scholar, as he tells of his spritual journey and briefly addresses the view of concentric cessationism in one of his foonotes….
http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=1548
I don’t desire to debate or defend (I think that is being done quite handily already), but I do have a question for both sides. These are just for clarification purposes, and I’ll take the answers offline (I know this is not a radio call-in show, but I always wanted to say that—plus I thought it would be fitting for cyberspace!!!! LOL!!!).
For Mel, IC, Doug and others:
Do you make the distinction between “prophecy” itself and the “office of prophecy”? If so, are you advocating that the office of prophecy is no longer in effect, or the gift itself, because as BLD has so eloquently stated, one need not be a prophet in order to speak words of prophecy. IC, I know you explained the difference between “foretelling” and “forthtelling”, and maybe I’m just a little dense, but I looked up the word and it’s usage and it seems that although it could be used both ways, the usage of the word varies depending on the situation and context. So, if the apostle Paul is speaking to the church, then I think that a clearer distinction should be made as to which he was referring to…Again, not trying to stir up the pot or anything, just need clarification on the issue from your side…
For B&R and BLD:
I definitely hear your arguments, and much of what you say brings balance to the issue. But my question is, since we reformed brethren understand the utter depravity of our existence without Christ and apart from His atoning work, how do we guard from allowing our already sinful, prideful bent to overcome us when we look more to the gift than the giver of the gift? If the purpose for these gifts are indeed for the glory of God and for the edification of the church, should we be so carried away by them that it defeats the purpose for which it is meant to serve? From one standpoint, I can honestly see where our cessationist brothers and sisters come from when they express that if there was a need for the gifts in our day, that the excercising of the gifts should be for the conversion of the unbeliever and should lead us to a deeper, more intimate relationship with the Messiah, Jesus Christ, and if this can be done by the diligent, prayerful, careful and earnest study of the scriptures then they question the purpose and role of the gifts that the 1st century church so freely enjoyed. So how do we handle it when our people are relying less on God’s word and more on looking for the supernatural? And if the office is still in place, how do we keep brothers and sisters who may think they have the gift from lacking proper balance and falling into (or leading others into) mess like this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LaledkUB_zo
Again, these are just questions for further clarification…I thought I would get this in before Mel closed the thread…
In other news….
Peter,
Just wanted to let you know that you may have missed an opportunity not only to show fruits meet for your repentance, but also to make a little extra cash…
http://www.wnyc.org/news/articles/104031
Perhaps they will give you another chance in the near future, although I don’t believe that the crime rate in Colorado would be cause for such an event…(lol!!!)
Back into hibernation I go as I await your responses…
Solus Christus,
R4C
1 Corinthians 13…
Hello, ready4change:
Thank you for the weapons-exchange suggestion — here comes the caveat — however, ain’t no way I’m giving up my trusty M-60, tripod, and pre-linked ammunition for a measly 200 clams!
Nevertheless, I have repented of any threatening behavior [I thought it was just jocularity or "silly talk" (Ephesians 5:4, thanks to IC)] in regards to traveling with said weapon intending to right a wrong, or to settle a score.
And to think Aubrey was afraid of a mere stoning! (I am guessing he has never seen the sort of suppressive fire a gunner can generate with this weapon.)
Anyway, I appreciate your prayers and encouragement - and Paul’s personal admonishment to me - from 1 Corinthians 13, brother.
1 Corinthians 13:5a (NAS95S) slaps me upside the head.
So, love back to you, r4c (Proverbs 27:17), as you settle back into hibernation.
Peter.