( On several occasions readers have written comments [in this case it was to another reader by the name of Bill] that are so on the money [and too long be presented as simply a comment] that I see the necessity of promoting those comments to full-fledged postings.
BooBoo’s Daddy made such a comment. His experience is one of the reasons I maintain the site. Telling you about it, marking the wolves, and making sure you understand that they are out there will perhaps equip you to a) avoid getting sucked into the same thing yourself and b) give you information to use in rescuing those who are trapped inside the WoF/Pimp organizations or c) help you understand that you CAN walk away from these pimps.
These types of postings also help all of you to understand what the effects on the individual can be and thereby encourage you to be more willing to be very patient with individuals as they work through the damage done by the pimps and pimpettes. From my point of view, this spiritual pimping is very much like sexual abuse perpetrated by the predators. It’s very difficult to get over and hey, the abuser blames the victim for the abusive behavior. )
Bill, you say that Joyce Meyer doesn’t run a cult, otherwise you wouldn’t be in it. Let me say that the people who are in cults think the same way! Nobody likes to think that they have been deceived,. They want to think they are smart enough to know better. I assure you that if Joyce Meyer teaches the prosperity gospel or that Jesus went to hell so you wouldn’t have to (and she does!), then she IS running a cult, and if you are supporting her, then YOU ARE in a cult and you don’t even know it!
What’s more, there is probably nothing anyone here can say to you that will convince you otherwise, and I for one will not attempt to do so. All anyone here can do for you is speak the truth. It’s up to God and you from there. If God can’t take some of what we say here and get it through to you, then you cannot be reached sir.
A few years ago, I supported Joyce Meyer with everything I had. I regarded her as a true, down to earth, sincere, and prosperous role model. I hung on every word that came out of her mouth as if they were the words of God straight to me. I never missed a show, and if I did, I watched her internet broadcasts. When she held her conferences in my area, I went to see her in person. I would do as she said to prove my commitment to God and take vacation days and drive 3 hours to Tulsa to see her preach at the ORU campus and drive 3 hours back home, justifying myself to God by reminding Him of these sacrifices.
Talking about sacrifice, not only did I give up a day’s pay to see her, but it was nothing for me to sacrifice $100 or more into the white buckets they’d pass around as offering plates, knowing all along that I’d have to sacrifice again when I didn’t have that money to pay a bill with! That, in addition to the hundreds of dollars I’d send her through the mail every month! In the typical Word of Faith fashion, I would then go to God in “prayer” and tell Him what He had to do (you [God] MUST keep your word; you MUST provide ‘pressed down, shaken-together’ etc; if I delight myself in you, you MUST give me the desire of my heart, ad nausea!).
Bill, that’s NOT praying! When a WoF preacher “prays” by saying “we bind you Satan, we come against all the powers of darkness, we rebuke all poverty and lack” etc, they are NOT praying to God! They are talking to the devil and speaking as if they were God Himself. It is NOT prayer. But I digress.
I absolutely LOVED Joyce Meyer! But God had other plans for me. I was DEEP into the Word of Faith . It was all I had ever known all my life. My grandmother latched onto the seed faith teachings of Oral Roberts back when it first came out. She taught my mother in the ways of the WoF, and my mother in turn taught us the same way!
I grew up thanking God for being numbered among those who knew the “truth!” Needless to say, I naturally equated the WoF to be the one and only WILL OF GOD, and anyone who believed otherwise was deceived and damned to hell! That being the case, I grew up feeling at one with all the T.V. ministers. I loved them ALL! As a young boy, I read Copeland’s “The Laws of Prosperity” and I was determined to make those laws work … after all they are LAWS and even God must abide by them!
But taking an honest look back over the past 30 years, I had to admit that they never worked for me. I grew up into my 40’s all along thinking there was something wrong with me. I would actually look at a mustard seed in the spice rack and wonder why my faith was so much smaller that that and didn’t work. Then I would get depressed because my faith was so much tinier than that mustard seed that God wouldn’t honor it.
I felt rejected by God. Sometimes that feeling of rejection made me angry at Him and there were times I actually told Him that he was a liar! That He WAS a respecter of persons; that He showed favoritism, and that He didn’t love me, even though I was doing everything I knew to do to keep with “His” teachings as I was taught them!
All that being said, let me say this: there was nothing wrong with my faith, so don’t even try to tell me “oh ye of little faith!” I’ve heard that all my life and now I know better. My faith was fine, but the problem was that my faith was in a LIE! The “god” I was mad at was NOT the God of the Bible! The “god” of the Word of Faith is a demon straight from HELL! I know that now, but therein lies the danger in Word of Faith teachings. The people in that CULT don’t even know who the TRUE God really is, and are damned as a result!
Back to Joyce Meyer. I supported her “ministry” with ALL of my substance, and I thought she was truly God speaking straight to me. But the more I gave to her, the poorer I got (the story of my life)! It wasn’t until I got down to where I was about to LOSE MY HOUSE the Lord began to act on the anguish inside me. I remember back in 2005, watching Joyce on T.V. One day she was talking about how she had brought her parents to St Louis and bought them a house close to her. She said “I was just in the mood to buy houses!” I almost screamed at her “why don’t you buy MINE for me?”
I pleaded with God to speak to her heart to send me a check and prevent the impending disaster facing me. Then I would know that God really heard me and loved me enough to finally do something after 30 years of giving!
But of course Joyce never did do that, and since I thought she was close to God and had his attentive ear, that it must be that God wanted me to suffer all the more! I couldn’t understand it. I had donated to her (God’s?) ministry, I helped her build her headquarters building and all the furnishings in it. According to her plea for funds back then, I was promised that I would “own” one square foot for each $100 I gave towards it (I gave $300, so I “owned” 3 square feet).
Had God forgotten that ????? Now I was in desperate need, had NOBODY to beg from like she did, and I felt God didn’t care. I told Him He was cruel and mean! But I still loved Him because even then, if I had given up on my ONLY hope, then I REALLY had no hope at all. Even then, I felt that my breakthrough might still come, so I’d pick myself up and apologize to God for my ill will towards Him.
Then one day, as I was watching Joyce on T.V. it seemed like literally “scales” fell from my eyes! Near the end of the show, as she was begging for donations, and her announcer came on talking about all her books that we could have for a “gift” of X-dollars, and then talked about “seeing Joyce in person” and hearing “Joyce preach the word as only she can do.” God Himself spoke to my spirit in that still small voice and told me “this isn’t about God, this is about JOYCE!” “Joyce” this, and “Joyce” that! And all the dollar signs on the T.V. screen seemed to “stick-out” like sore thumbs, and the whole thing smacked of one big long INFOMERCIAL about Joyce Meyer!!
That, my friend, was the beginning of my exodus from the Word of Faith! Each time I saw her show, it got even more disgusting to me … and I stopped giving to her. S L O W L Y, by putting a stop to the hemorrhage of money flowing out of my bank account to these people, I was able to recover somewhat, and I never did lose my house. But it was close. That, my friend was GOD showing me that He really did care about my financial well-being. He didn’t want my money!!!!! And not only did He NOT want my money, I was NOT cursed with a curse if I KEPT it !!!! That is freedom!
About the same time, I just happened to stumble upon this website, Pulpit-Pimps.org, and God has used this site TREMENDOUSLY to teach me the truth about where I had been all my life and that the Lord loved me enough to lead me out of it into the truth!
Unbeknownst to me, my mother, who had raised me in the WoF, had been led out of their heresy about a year before I had! She never told me though. I asked her why, and she said that I would have thought she was backslidden and lost in heresy forever. And she was right. Some other members of my extended family are not convinced, and there is a definite divide - but even that is mentioned in the Bible. That’s why I say that nothing any of us say will EVER convince you of the truth. You will just think that we are deceived and damned to hell. If God doesn’t get through to you, then YOU are not reachable. It’s as simple as that!
I know this is a LONG post, but before I stop there is some more I want to say about the Word of Faith.
The salvation of Jesus Christ is NOT about all the things that the Lord gives to His people! And people who seek the Lord for what He can give them are seeking Him for all the WRONG reasons! A person cannot receive the salvation of Christ unless first he realizes that he is a wretched sinner who deserves HELL, not all of the worldly stuff you WoF people clamor after! It’s not about getting all the STUFF. It’s about giving up their lives for HIM and becoming His slaves. Somehow you Word of Faith people have gotten that all backwards. You think salvation is about getting, and getting more It’s just STUFF, material worldly stuff, it’s CARNAL and ungodly! You think that all your STUFF is proof that you are blessed. There is one thing that is promised for sure to all true followers of Christ and that is PERSECUTION!
You Word of Faithers only think of earthly “blessings”. But God does not promise us the things of this world. Think about it What would it profit you to gain the whole world and lose your own SOUL? Copeland, Benny Hinn, Joyce Meyer, Joel Osteen, Creflo Dollar, Paula White, all of those hellish creatures on TBN - I can’t even name all of the pulpit pimps on TV (and maybe even your pastor too by the way) all of them have their reward. They have their “Best Life Now” But they can’t take any of it with them where they go
What about later on? The Bible speaks of the rich man and Lazarus. That kind of reminds me of the relationship between all these RICH pastors and their pimped followers. I believe they will suffer the same fate!
God does promise us SPIRITUAL prosperity, but you Word of Faith people only think on things of this world. When people like you give expecting your 100-fold return, you are giving to GET !!!! But the true Jesus tells us to give, expecting NOTHING in return. Do any of you honestly do that? Neither are we supposed to give out of NECESSITY or of COMPULSION … tell THAT to all of the pimp preachers on TV who incessantly compel us to give to their ministries ad nausea! It’s WRONG! If any of them really believed what they “preach” then all they really have to do is give and expect their 100-fold return and leave their audiences ALONE! But they won’t ever do that, because they really don’t believe what they preach either. Otherwise they would practice what they preach. YOU are profitable to them, and they fear that if they don’t ask YOU for it, YOU won’t give it to them. YOU are their cash cow, not GOD.
I am not attacking you, so don’t even go there. I am speaking from a life of experience. As I said, I was all bound up and hog-tied in all that Word of Faith crap for almost 30 YEARS!!! I gave, and I gave. I did all of the right things according to our famous PIMPS! It was nothing for me to fork over almost everything I had … tithes and offerings above and beyond what was expected, because I BELIEVED what the pimps said. I thought that I was doing what GOD wanted, and I suffered the consequences of that for far too long.
Like Joyce Meyer always says “give until it hurts!” — “give SACRIFICIALLY!” My intentions were good. And I had faith. But my faith was in a LIE! I was sincere and honest, but I was sincerely and honestly WRONG. I think that the Lord really knew that, and finally got through to me to just STOP IT! Like, HELL-OOOOO! If this thing still doesn’t work after nearly 30 years, guess what - IT DOESN’T WORK!!
I see myself all over all of you defenders of these people. I was just like ALL of you. And a couple of years ago, I would have been standing right there by your side. That’s why I say that ONLY THE LORD will ever get through to you. Nobody could have EVER gotten through to me so I know that.
I guess you can tell I am just a little bit angry about this lie that is continuously propagated by the deluge of televangelists spewing this prosperity vomit into living rooms across this country and bringing millions to hell with them. But maybe somehow the Lord can use my experience to help lead someone else out of this DELUSION you call faith. It is another gospel, and the “Jesus” you think you worship will someday be crystal clear to you. I just hope that you find out who it really is before it’s too late. REALLY! The Bible is the truth, and it contains the way to the real Jesus. This Word of Faith gospel is pure MADNESS !!!!!
THIS WAS AN AWESOME POST!!! This is true ministry. Thanks, BooBoo’s Dad for sharing. I pray that people will listen and go back to the Word. There is a great opening of turning away when people are led to be so disappointed in something they truly had faith in, only to find that it isn’t coming. They naturally blame God because they had faith and believed, not realizing that God is only bound by HIS Word.
Melvin, help me with something I’ve been pondering: “I’ve come that you might have life, and have it more abundantly”… Could that be speaking only of when we go to Heaven and return with Christ? I think that many people use this passage in believing that this passage is talking about living abundantly here. I believe it is at least speaking of spiritual abundance in Him. Can you elaborate? Thanks. And keep doing what you are doing!
This is my family. When I first came upon this site, these are the kinds of things we were going through but were ashamed to say because of what our fellow “saints” might think of us. Someone on this sight called me a “wounded warrior” and that was right. It was a combination of what this post was and “leaders” in the church with their own agendas snuffing out the gifts God put in us. The part about the mustard seed really hit me because my husband did the same thing, believing something was wrong with his faith. We were followers of Hagin, Copeland, Dollar, Seville, Duplantis, and had seen all of them in person at our church. My husband sang with Alvin Slaughter one time and we felt our children were “anointed” to be actually touched by Kenneth Hagin the year before he passed away. I am at work and trying to hold back the tears, but I printed this for my husband and hope we can re group and actually be what God wants us to be. We were given musical gifts for a reason, we need a place to present them. Thanks Melvin and Boo Boo’s Dad!
P.S. Melvin, I hope you remembered my book. If not, please tell me where I can buy it.
stvmmom1012,
You can order the book on Amazon, or it should be at any local christian bookstore near you. On Amazon the starting price is about 7 or 8 dollars. While you’re waiting for the book, if you want to know what the nine marks are and get a good detailed explanation of them, go to this link:
http://www.9marks.org/CC_Content_Page/0,,PTID314526|CHID616736|CIID,00.html
By the way, being musically inclined myself, I would love to know more about you and your family’s musical gifts (instrumental, vocal, etc.,.). That is, only if you don’t mind sharing…Be blessed dear sister…
Solus Christus,
R4C
I don’t mind. My husband and I both sing, he plays the drums, I play the violin, our children both sing, our son plays the drums and sax, our daughter plays the french horn. In 2001, we released a CD called “From Sin to Salvation.” In 2002, a book I had written in the mid 90s was published called “Crack in the Sky”. Thanks for asking.
Thank you, thank you, thank you! I too (and many of my friends) have been giving, giving, giving tithes, offerings AND to the televangelists and we’ve been complaining that we have not received 100 fold on anything!! We’ve moved away from these TV preachers and feel a relief. No more pressure to give to THEIR ministries to be blessed. I feel much better giving to the homeless and battered women’s shelters than I ever felt giving to the TV ministers!!!
Right on! Keep it real. Give to cutting edge
ministries (in addition to a reasonable support
for your local assembly of believers) and whatever you do…do not let the prosperity
gangsta’s steal your joy.
If I may…the verse: I come that they might have life
and have it more abundantly….the “it” refers to
life and that life is Jesus the Christ. He came that
we might have more of his life. He is our abundance! Christ did not come to die on a cross to insure that Joyce Meyers or Taffy Dollar or K. Copeland or J. Bynum can live in palatial luxury. He came to reconcile the world back to God.
Jesus did not have to die for us to be prosperous. He
could have done that long distance from heaven by
simply blessing our “gimme gimme” prayers. No need
to die for that. He came to destroy the works of the
devil and that includes false teachers preaching a
different gospel or a different Jesus. A false gospel
detracts worship away from him and onto an idol…
the almighty dollar.
If prosperity was Jesus’s main concern, then there is
no hell nor punishment for sin since financial prosperity can stand on its own without the need for Calvary and the shed blood of the Lamb of God.
BBD,
That is one of the best post that I have ever read on this blog. God Bless you and may He use your testimony to open the eyes of as many as He has appointed. Except for the 30 years, it was as if I was reading my own experience. Especially the “mad at God” syndrome. Thank God for His wondrous grace!
PREACH!
know that is a powerfull testamony!
I am jumpin and shoutin!!!! That is an awesome post! God is truly GOOD ALL the TIME! His GRACE is greater than ALL our sins!!!!
This was a very good post and so true. I have experienced the same thing and still working thru it.
Anonymous, do not be discouraged. It is a frightful thing to turn from something you’ve always known, because the God you thought you knew is suddenly a “stranger” to you. It’s like a death … it’s like “losing your religion” … because really it IS!! Sometimes you question whether you might be deceived again by turning your back on the only God you knew. You’re tormented in the beginning by the nagging thought: “I was wrong before … how do I know I’m not wrong NOW?”
I understand completely, as do a great majority of the others here. Let me encourage you by saying that you aren’t where you are by accident. The path from one place to another is taken one step at a time. It isn’t a straight path, nor is it smooth, but you aren’t walking it alone. One thing Joyce Meyer always said that I still embrace is “I’m not where I need to be, but thank God I’m not where I used to be!” Not everything they say is a lie. I just see it with different eyes now.
Read Jim Bakkers book “I was Wrong”
One thing Joyce Meyer always said that I still embrace is “I’m not where I need to be, but thank God I’m not where I used to be!” Not everything they say is a lie.
Yes, that is how the devil often works. He mixes lies with the truth he heard somewhere (He himself is unable to recognise truth, he depends on the faithful for that. He is an evesdropper but there is no truth in him. Gen 3:1 and John 8:44)
They definitely get some things right. As the proverb goes: even a broken clock is right twice a day.
Of course Joyce Meyer isn’t where she used to be. She’s now living in an enormous mansion with scattered other mansions around her compound for her kids……..and to house Dave’s $100,000 cars.
Nope, she sure ain’t where she used to be.
Hello, Mr. Rolph:
Indeed: “Not everything they say is a lie.”
Not everything I say is a lie either, although I pray that I give slightly more diligence to the truth than your friend, Joyce.
Hey, BooBoo’s Dad! Aren’t you just enthralled with this?
Peter.
Comment by dickkopf 2009-05-26 04:34:31
Hello, Mr. Rolph:
Indeed: “Not everything they say is a lie.”
Not everything I say is a lie either, although I pray that I give slightly more diligence to the truth than your friend, Joyce.
Hey, BooBoo’s Dad! Aren’t you just enthralled with this?
Peter.
I think you totally misunderstood my comment. Meyer is no friend of mine. Sheep do not like wolves. I know the voice of my King and His name is Jesus Christ. He has come in the flesh and will come again….soon.
Amen. Come soon Lord Jesus.
God bless you.
One more thing if I may … if you ever question what the real meaning is of something you see in the Bible that you have learned in error from a pimp, never underestimate the wisdom of GaryV … I have learned from MANY here, but unbeknownst to GaryV, I have sat here as a silent student of his from the beginning. He may come across to some as pompous or maybe even rude … usually the perception of those who are still under the strong delusion; however, I have seen him show great humility here too. When he is wrong, it is not beneath him to admit it and apologize. It may be presumptuous of me to speak for him, but if you question ANY false teaching you have received, don’t be afraid to ask … I’m sure he would be happy to share his insights on the matter!
To BooBoo’sDad:
I see that I have friend who kneels of GaryV’s seat of learning as well!
By the way, BooBoo’sDad, your generous comment read like a catharsis. It took courage to lay it out like you did, and we love you for it!
Your experience shows me that, in spite of the powerful influences of family, friends, and fleecers,you loved the truth (2 Thessalonians 2:10).
Sincerely,
Peter
AWESOME…thanks for sharing! When I thought I was all alone and others thought I was crazy. It is so refreshing to come across others who have experienced the same and being reformed as I.
With Prayers & Praises…..
That was humbling and powerful. I have so many questions and I have not seen the answers just yet. I understand the prosperity gospel stuff and see it for what it is. I would reiterate trayjay’s question and follow with one of my own. I have read your article on tithing. I understand the concept of giving and gifts. I am struggling now on how to respond to a church that asks for a tithe and to a wife who insists on doing it.
Since it is my belief that all churches use the OT to this end for their fund raising, I am led to the conclusion that no church is worthy of my offering. I can see the extreme examples of the pimps listed here on this site. But what of the local Roman Catholic church down the street? They ask for a tithe as well. Help me with this, please.
(MN: Not all churches do that. While I no longer attend, and they have some other difficulties, Calvary Chapel churches (Breath of Life in Largo Maryland specifically) do not make a habit of insisting on the tithing scheme. Also, the people I fellowship with - Hillcrest Baptist in Temple Hills Maryland, are quite explicit about the refusal to appeal to the idea of mandatory tithes. The phrase “tithes and offerings” floats around. But they are quite clear that tithing is not a requirement for the church. The people give because they want to see the body accomplish its goals and objectives. )
I belong to a fellowship that do not tithe as well. My pastor taught an extensive lesson on this. We refer to the 2Co 9:7 ,” Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.” You can share this scripture with your wife. Other than that if she doesn’t have the ear to hear, then you will have to continue to pray that God will open up her understanding. I too belonged to a church where if you didn’t tithe you were on your way to hell and would be cursed with a curse. I now realize, that no man can put me in hell. Keep praying, my husband did and God brought us out, together. He would feed me tidbits of different things at a time and because I wanted to have a sincere heart in following God, he opened up my understanding. As long as your wife has a heart that just wants to please God, there is still hope. God can open her eyes. Be encouraged.
We studiously avoid the use of the word “tithe” when talking about giving. Can I include a link here? My pastor did some great teaching on giving — here’s the link to the first of four sermons in the series:
http://www.sojournchurch.com/gospel-our-mission-and-giving
In one of the sermons (or perhaps in a couple of them), he talks about Jesus’ standards of living in the Kingdom — the Old Covenant way is about attaining to a set standard and that’s it. You must give 10%. You must not eat x, y, and z. You must wear this but not that. Et cetera. But where in the NT does Jesus ever say, “You know that law in the OT? Well, I’m here to lower the bar a little bit.” No, he says, “You have heard it said… But I say to you…” be more generous, be more concerned about sin, be more forgiving. We talk about a Kingdom standard of generosity. If you’re a student and make $5000 a year, giving 5% might be incredibly generous for you. If you’re an exec and make $500,000 a year, you might not even notice giving 15%. The standard Paul talks about in 2 Cor 8-9 isn’t about a number or a percentage, but one of planned, systematic, sacrificial, joyous giving.
Then how does your pastor guarantee money coming into the church, if not by compulsory giving, in the form of the tithe?
(MN: He doesn’t guarantee money coming into the church. That’s not his job. The members give as the Lord leads them to give. They know that if they don’t give then the pastor doesn’t get paid, the lights don’t stay on, and the various ministires don’t take place.
And givin this process guess what God gets to do in the church? He gets to move on the people’s hearts to give where He wants them to give. If the pastor got a hair up his butt and decided that the church needed to buy some property and build a bigger church for us to “grow into:, guess what won’t happen? That’s right. Unless God moved on the congregation’s hearts to give, there ain’t gonna be no money for monument building. )
That’s exactly what my wxpastor did with the church. It’s a debt free church because members and my family were drilled with this tithing thing. Huess what? The building is OWNED by the pastor and his wife, they double dip to pay for a home,cars, 401ks, trips, insurance. It’s not a rumor, i was in that circle. Made me sick and angry about it! It looks like they are getting by with a lot! It’s a spiritually abusive church. He started off as a humble shepherd. Trying to raise funds to build another one,which they don’t need.
MN, it is very interesting you brought forward the “Lord’s leading” people to give versus the Old Testament strong-arming to give.
I raised this issue on Independent Conservative concerning the Senate probe into the six targeted ministries for possible financial impropriety. Although, the feds are not initiating their actions from a biblical perspective, it can, nonetheless, bring forward the scriptural consequences for these shenanigans.
Should the investigation result in the overhaul of the federal tax code concerning churches, with the stripping of their tax-exemption status, this would likely result in a few things. One, contributors would no longer be able to get a tax write-off for the contribution; two, the church would then be subject to income and property taxes; and three, would cause the church its likely swift demise. (MN: I disagree. It would cause the church to settle for smaller, less magnificent buildings, pay the pastor less, and create smaller congregations. One church I worshipped with met at the YMCA on Sundays. Where does it say a church has to own its own building or most of the other stuff we simply accept as normal for the church? )
Again, the prosperity gospel is built predominantly on the promises of giving to get. The motivation to “give” would evaporate instantly with the revocation of this long-standing code, as it should. It would then be the most true test as to whether the church was called to exist in the first place. (MN: Yeah - and then you would only have the people who are giving to give. I guess it’s kind of like persecution. The only folks who are going to show up in the face of persecution, are the real Christians. Tell me again why this is a bad thing. )
@Seekerman: I seem to recall something in the form of “generously, not under compulsion” being in the New Testament regarding giving. Did I just make that up?
If giving at a certain level is compulsory, how is it to be free, generous, sacrificial, cheerful? Teaching on giving is essential — not begging, or demanding or bribing, but real teaching on what God’s word says about the generous, Gospel-transformed hearts and lives of believers.
Laura, 2 Corinthians 9:7 addresses giving by your heart’s purpose, not compulsively.
Dear Seekerman,
I have pastored a church for five years and all we do is free giving. We are able to pay all of our bills and we even have a new facility. No begging, no pimping, just following the leading of the Lord. We encourage people to seek God’s leading concerning stewardship. As a pastor, you have to follow the new testment principle of free giving. If you don’t you are violating scripture. People who are truly converted usually need no prompting to give of their time, talent or treasure. For pastors it boils down to an issue of faith. If God is really doing something he sends the resources. It is our plans and our agendas that God doesn’t pay for. God always supplies the resources for his programs. By the way his plans rarely inolve Bentley’s and Rolls Royces
(MN: Exactly. )
I like Ralph Hodge………
Ralph Hodge for President!!!!
As I see it especially when i go to a church when they start to beg or bring out scripture out of context. If only the Preachers would quote the right giving scripture i believe more people would give with a genuine heart.
All I can say is Yes and Amen. What is worst, is that our local churches have picked up this mentality. The pastors and wives, children also drive these expensive cars and 80% of the members are “cabbing it”, or public transportation. Their mortgages are being paid with the rent and utility money from their members. This must stop and thank God for those of us who dare to stand up and “Cry Aloud”.
That testimony came about because he finally read God’s Word for himself. Good to see that at least one person broke free from a wof church(building) before his/her life and mental health totally fell apart. An excellent book on this matter is “Christianity In Crisis” by Hanegraaff.
This is a powerful post.
The sad thing that the WOF BS is even in people’s language. I told someone to stay away from people who love drama and she thanked me for prophesizing to her. That was not prophesis, just common sense.
I hope you circulate this essay so other’s can see your efforts to save yourself.
Man that was powerful!!! May I copy and paste this to another blog(not taking any credit mind you)? I have been down this road too. I often say, you cannot look to the Joyce Meyers of the world to validate prosperity. If any of us had millions giving to us each week, we too could stand up and talk about how this prosperity gospel works. DUH!!!
It’s not under copyright … I am all for helping others to get the courage to walk away !!!
Hey Booboo Dad, Great post. Just wanted to pop in and say that it is under copyright. So you can possibly have inserted into your post “I give permission to anyone who wants to do so to re-print this” so you don’t get asked the same questions.
I’ve been saying this for years. If I sold books and tapes to people all around the country, I too can talk about this money flow. But for those of us who are not on tv pushing our products - money doesn’t just flow into our hands. Nor does money start flowing when we give to these ministries. I’ve been tithing and giving to televangelists for years and still have not reaped what I have sown.
I’ve been thinking about it for a long time, and decided that I am just going to throw my opinion out there on the “books & tapes” issue … it’s been something that’s been bothering me for quite awhile now.
Many of the T.V. preachers who say they don’t take a salary from the church, but instead are living off the royalties for the books and tapes that they sell … well, let me say, that I bought lots of Joyce’s books, tapes, and CDs, and many times I was disappointed to find out that the information in them are almost taken verbatim from what she had been preaching on T.V. They are nothing less than her “sermons” presented on a different medium.
Now would someone please tell me how this is any different than SELLING THE WORD OF GOD to the people?? (nevermind that the message is false). The Word of God should NOT be bought or sold, or am I wrong? If ANY of these “ministers” really did care even a little bit about the immortal souls of those people that they are trying to reach; if they were even only a little concerned about preventing people from dying in their sins and going to HELL, wouldn’t it be the right thing to do to get God’s word to these people at no cost to them? If they have received any information from God that was capable of saving souls, why then do they boast that they are making their living off of selling that information to others? Freely they have received it from the Lord, yet they CHARGE the public for it. It is absolutely unconscionable to me that this is done.
Like I said, we know that the message they are selling is a false one, but this is a matter of principle. Is there NO SHAME in these people? No, there is NOT!
If they truly loved the Lord, and if they truly loved those they “lead,” they would distribute that “soul-saving” information FREE! Melvin, I know you understand this concept … you have lead by example by offering books for free on this site, and although I know you would not applaud yourself for it, yet I applaud you. THAT is the way the pimps should be distributing their works … if only they weren’t P I M P S !!!
Hey there booboo (in my best Yogi bear imitation) I guess this means that you don’t want to buy the Melvinite Temple T-shirt huh? That’s too bad, I think the dictator would have loved to have one made for the dog. I got a special order one for Mel, GV and IC so that they can look like Captain Kirk, Spock and Scotty…
http://juliankandyministries.blogspot.com/2008/02/melvinite-t-shirts-for-sale.html
JOG, those are great T-Shirts
I get to be Spock though………..you know me, cool, calm, and dispassionate.
whateva’a cleva, just don’t give me the vulcan claw lol.
NOw I just need some photoshop equipment to show melly Mel with a lightsaber cuttin’ down some pulpit pimps like droidekas.
um,,,, you don’t think that is too geeky do you?
hey jules (jog),
i like your yogi bear imitation. after reading that i just had to say it myself, lol. ok, i know, i know- it don’t take much to make mav laugh. laughter is my drug of choice, sue me. (big grin)
Could’ve been worse Mav, with everyone shortening Boo Boo’s nickname to a smaller “BBD” I started singing in my head “Poison” by Bell, Biv Devoe.
“Can get it out of my head…”
Brother BBD,
To make sure I hear where you’re coming from, you’re not necessarily against ALL FORMS of copy-righted material or people making money off of the materials they produce, are you?)
I don’t believe that life-saving (spiritual) information, or any information that has been “freely given” by our Lord should then be marketed to the public for personal gain. If Jesus didn’t charge his listeners for the Word of God, or his insights into the Word of God, then if one truly wishes to follow His example, one should likewise not place a price on it … it is my opinion. I have been dwelling on it for a long time. I am not going to even try to attempt to make anyone else see it “my way” if there be any who disagree. It is my opinion and it is reasonable to me … it isn’t an essential, and I do not wish to strike up a debate on it if that is your intention.
Hey Brother BBD,
Thanks for clarifying. Again, just wanted to be sure of where you’re coming from. Awesome testimony by the way..
I like you G². But I wasn’t altogether sure why you wanted me to clarify where I was coming from. (I thought it was evident). I have my reasons for believing the way I do … I think alot of comes from what I have seen and experienced with the pimps, but I don’t know where you stand on the issue, and I honestly haven’t had to publicly defend my position on the “buying/selling the Word” before - thus the reason for not wishing to debate with you if you disagree with me. It’s not so much pacifism as much as it is a matter of me having a tendency to show unhealthy emotions in the event I fail to get my point across … so I choose to just let things go and keep my peace if that is possible.
I must say I can relate to N’Catina in one of her posts below where she says she hasn’t been posting here because she says she was “unseasoned … in the sense of not wanting to contribute to the blog on straight impulse or emotionalism to specific posts, but to gather a sufficient-enough background on what is discussed to contribute intellegently.”
I’ve been reading some of your posts here for years G², and I respect you much. Thanks for understanding.
Just my two cents on this…..
While I understand your sentiments BBD and appreciate and somewhat agree with your thoughts, I must say that I have never personally had a problem with people selling their books, tapes, etc…. per se although I have many times thought that it would be nice if copies of sermons and services were freely dsitributed (although it does cost to do this). Some ministries do now accomplish this by streaming services on their website.
Although I think that much, dare I say most, of the televangelism that we see on TV now is designed to make money for the ministries, no one is forcing the public to buy these products. And if they choose to do so, they are usually getting “what they paid for” in that book, cd, dvd, etc…be it false doctrine or not.
However, what I think is much, much worse is the enticing of people to give offerings to these people with the promise that they will be materially blessed 100 fold, etc…. I find that to be tantamount to stealing and not buying and selling because what they are sellilng is a lie.
If someone has a book, or a sermon, or a gospel album do you think you are supposed to get it for free? I mean if I want a Genuine Leather Bible does the company send it to me just because I believe in Eloheem? Emphatically No! Someone took time to put this together and the person who preached and or wrote what you bought should get paid for it. That is business. There is nothing wrong with having a business related to that of serving and worshipping the Eloheem.
Hello, “centerofworship” also known as “REV. A. L. MASON”:
We, here at Pulpit Pimps, are anxiously awaiting your response to ready4change’s comment (2008-02-03) in Melvin’s posting “I Think I Love the Lord.”
As a white boy from Pittsburgh, perhaps you can enlighten me on a few things - since, according to your Barak African Ministry website - your “mood” is “enlightened” with a “smiley face”.
Question #1: Are you alluding to Barak Obama, what has he done?, or to Ehud Barak, the most decorated soldier in the history of the Israel Defense Forces?
Question #2: Is the “Eloheem” to whom you are referring, the rapper, aka “Mr. Perfect,” or is this just a hip spelling of Elohim?
Question #3: Perhaps I missed it: is there any mention of my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, on your site?
From the tone of your responses as researched on the Munificent Despot’s website, REV. A. L. MASON/aka centerofworship, you appear to be an angry man. (Please see James 1:19-21 and understand that James is speaking specifically to Christians, so you may be exempt.)
It is my prayer that you come to believe Jesus’ statement, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM” (John 8:58). Renounce and throw in the dumpster, your confused Egyptology/Hebrew/Black Muslim Nationalism and hope that the Father has chosen you as one of the elect!
By the way, if you would like a Bible - and based on the paucity of your references to Scripture in your comments - you NEED one. Click here: http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/
Unlike your site, ahem reverend, you will not see any Donate Buttons at Gateway or at Pulpit-Pimps.
We hope to hear some arguments from you soon - from Scripture of course!
Then maybe you think Paul should have been paid for all the work he put into writing his epistles? You think there is nothing wrong with making a business out of preaching and teaching the word of God, and you are entitled to that opinion. On the other hand, I believe that it is wrong, and I have already stated some of my reasons why. I don’t believe that my Lord caused all those dollar signs to pop out off the screen while I was watching Joyce’s show for nothing … I have witnessed the buying and selling of her books, tapes, and CDs at her “tape table” she had set up in the foyer where she “preached.” She is selling to people what Jesus intended to be free. She is in effect making the “house of God into a place of merchandise” and if Jesus had been there, He would have turned the tables over and scattered their money on the floor!
I concede that in our modern capitalist society, things “cost money” and “ya don’t get somethin’ for nothin!” But that is because we as a body of believers have assimilated ourselves with the buying and selling society in which we live. This is NOT the way the early christians dealt with each other. You say that:
Still pimpin’, eh Antoine?? Are you wearing your tin foil yarmulke??
I once was lost, but now I’m found, was blind but now I see! That’s been my cry since I left my WOF church in 10/07…Oh the words of that old negro hymn…free at last, free at last THANK GOD ALMIGHTY I’M FREE AT LAST! Awesome testimony Booboo’s Daddy!
As I sit here with tear filled eyes for I through this site have been set free, when I think of the damage that has occurred spiritully to me I get angry! Not to mention all of the money that I have placed in the hands of the pimps and their families to “show off to the world”. Thank you for this post and this site it has caused thick scales over my eyes to fall completely off! Thank you Father for your grace and mercy. Melvin please don’t let anyone tell you that this site isn’t helping because I have been helped and am now helping others by telling them to go here and find truth.
Hey Mel,
May I have your permission to post this @ In Submission to Sovereignty?
(MN: I don’t think Boo Boo’s Dad will object. BBD? )
Like I said to Aljonathan above, it’s not under copyright !!! How could I possibly say “no” … Let the world know the truth in any way it can be made known !!!
to God be the glory for sharing your testimony brother. i’m so glad for you that He brought you out, bbd. i have many friends who LOVE joyce meyers and to hear them talk about her makes me want to scream, but i know they don’t have ears to hear the truth, so i just pray that God will open their blinded eyes. i agree with you- if God doesn’t do it, it can’t be done. i might as well be speaking into the air….
Ahhh the word, it’s sharp and it cut him Good.
praise his holy name.
Hey Sharon,
You are right about the disparity between many of the prosperity pastors and the people. It is ethically wrong to live so vastly above the financial standards of thepeople youserve. Some who do this, like Fred Price in his Rolls and other expensive cars in South Central, LA claim they do this to insire the people to live greater lives. They forgot that greater in the Kingdom of GOD is not the same as in the Kingdom of Thingdom. Jesus said the greatest will be the least. Greatness will be defined by a heart of service. Perhaps Price could sell his $80,000 cars and buy cars for his most needy congregants. Ministerial Ethics is a thought of a bygone era for these hustlers and propponents of vice and greed.
saint james,
Amen to that one!!!!
Hi BBD. A mesmerizing testimony filled with sanctifying truth!
After I got out from under such teachings (although I was not as committed to it as you were), I came to realize what Satan’s plan was. I saw it unfold in what you said, “I told Him He was cruel and mean!”
I finally learned why the direct quotes of Satan accusing man are what we find in Job: “But now, stretch out Your hand and touch all that he has, and he will surely curse You to Your face!” He made the same charge against Job again in chapter two. Our second witness.
This is his true plan - to get people to curse God for the misfortunes they believe He either caused or failed to avert. This is what these pimps are being used by the same devil to do to the masses they mislead. Satan wants us to be so embittered against God, that we will turn from Him in anger for what we think He did to us. He wants us to charge Him with wrong - the very One Who is the Savior of man. Thank God, you did not stay with that accusation against Him of being mean and cruel.
Job actually has a lot more faith than modern WOFers give him credit for. “In all this, Job did not sin or charge God with wrong.” Job was even constantly worried that his children had cursed God in their hearts. How much that man knew about people! No wonder it’s the oldest book of the Bible.
Job also said, The Lord giveth (is giving) and the Lord taketh (is taking) away. He KNEW God much better than many New Testament believers do today. He knew that this is a corrupt world with no temporal guarantees from above. No matter how hard we believe it or claim it or demand it, earthly wealth and health is not evenly distributed, even among His people. His people often suffer the loss of health and wealth by persecution. Look and Kenya and Sudan today, for example, or the many unknown Christian martyrs over the millennia starting with Jesus.
This modern misled bunch want to believe the delusion that God is here to make our Christian life a mini-Paradise on earth, filled with enduring health and wealth. They even prooftext this false doctrine to nail it firmly to their greedy hearts (I was one!). They will eventually curse God just as Satan desires, for they will never recognize that the Jesus they are “believing” is a different one than the One of the Bible. This other one cannot save them, nor will he give them access to the Living and True God. Woe to them and their teachers! Please, God, grant them repentance unto the acknowledging of the truth that they may recover themselves from the snare of the devil, just as you did with BBD, many others and me.
BooBoo’s Dad….
As many have said, this post is such a blessing and so true!! I was involved in many of these same churches and ‘practices’ as well. I couldn’t even begin to tell you all of the ridiculous doctrine I’ve heard preached over the past 20+ years.
What’s really sad to me about this whole “proserity gospel ” is that the scriptures do indeed have a lot to say about how we should deal with our lives in the material arena. It speaks of being prepared, saving our money, taking advantage of opportunities presented to us, developing/investing our talents, planning for the costs of various undertakings etc. It also speaks of seekng God for direction in all of our actions and decisions. But, the problem is, all of the above things require work, discipline, and faith in god’s word and direction.
What the properity gospel promotes is the idea that money and financial increas is just going to fall out of the sky!! It will require no responsibility, discipline, education (not necessarily formal) , sacrifice, or stewardship.
And that tickles the ears of our flesh and encourages our carnality because it’s all about us and what we want. No encouragement is ever given to seek the heart of God and to make those things that are important to Him important to us.
But isn’t that what the scriptures said would come?
Help, God…help
Stan, this is so true … Satan’s plan to get God’s people to curse him to his face … this is why learning the truth is so absolutely necessary, along with discernment, which the Word of Faith “preachers” and their followers do not have, otherwise this deceptive lie would be crystal clear … it was his plan back in Job’s day as it is his plan today, because regretfully all too often it works.
You know, I was so convinced of Copeland’s laws of prosperity, and what he said about our heavenly bank account, and the 100-fold return on all deposits made into it, that I actually kept a heavenly “checkbook” to keep track of how much I had in my account in heaven! According to his interpretation of “storing not up wealth on this earth,” each time we gave, we were making a deposit … add the 100-fold “interest”, and from that amount we could make our withdrawals … of course the logical conclusion for me was to keep a ledger of what I gave, and multiply it by 100, and that was the amount that “God owed me” !!! I did that for a year or so, but can you imagine the audacity it takes to do such a thing? Oh, God is merciful, patient, and kind … even while I attempted to make “withdrawals” from my heavenly account by making demands of what I was errantly taught was “mine.” Remembering back to that fills me with extreme gratitude that God DIDN’T pay me what I had due … the wages of sin is DEATH!! I am deeply sorrowful of my past, and words cannot express the gratitude I have towards God for bringing me out of that and into the truth … God owes us NOTHING except for what He already gave us with His Son, and if I never have anything else, that is enough! But many remain yet in bondage to that lie, and Copeland will have their blood on his hands … he will have alot to answer for one day, as he thumbs his nose at the Senate investigations now. I watched the video on IC’s site where Copeland told them he gave them a “several page lesson on NO!” …
You can watch it here if you haven’t seen it:
http://www.independentconservative.com/2008/01/30/huckabee_and_copelands/#comments
When our Lord calls him to account for the very things the U.S. Senate is calling him to account for, I certainly wouldn’t relish being him if his answer is the same!
I ask the Lord to have mercy on those who shall be His, but like I told FDM on another posting here, if anyone doubts the truth of what is proclaimed here, let them not say they were not warned!! There will be nothing left to be said for them on that day if they will not even consider for a moment that they might be wrong.
Hello, BooBoo’sDad:
Holy, smoke!
And I mean smoke:
Gen 19:27-29.
Are you startin’ to preach?
Give me a ringy-dingy (Laugh-In, anyone, circa 1968) at dickkopf@hotmail.com when you simmer down. Whew!
Hey BBD, have you ever noticed that the WoF doctrine of your “Heavenly Bank Account” is directly analogous to Rome’s selling of indulgences, the spark that lit the Protestant Reformation??
I often wonder when a new Luther will arise to beat back the modern Tetzels. Because we don’t need Revival,we need a return to the Reformation.
Yes GV, I have noticed that. We have come full circle and find ourselves once again at a time when we need another Luther. Martin Luther, while he was yet suffering under the scourge of false teaching, was being prepared until the Lord’s time for events to take place. If the Lord so wills for another to arise, it will happen in the Lord’s time. All events are taking place according to the Lord’s will so that the prophecies of old are fulfilled. You know, I had the rare opportunity to visit Lutherstadt-Wittenberg when I lived in Germany and saw the Schloßkirche (Castle church), where he nailed his 95 theses to the door. I also visited the memorial in Prague where Jan Hus was burned at the stake for speaking against indulgences and defying Rome almost a century before Luther’s time … The Lord has graciously allowed me to see firsthand these historical places where His Will was done. I am blessed to be able to read and comprehend Martin Luther’s translation of the Bible in German, and am able to compare and contrast that with my English versions … I am blessed, not with earthly possessions, but simply with the knowledge of God and that His Will is being done in all things pertaining to me. If peradventure, the Lord sees fit to raise up another Martin Luther in our time to defy the modern day indulgences being sold to the sheeple, I would be honored to witness that event and stand with such a one!
Hey, Stan:
Great post!
“Then Satan went out from the presence of the LORD and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot to the crown of his head.
And he took a potsherd to scrape himself while he was sitting among the ashes.
Then his wife said to him, “Do you still hold fast your integrity? Curse God and die!”
But he said to her, “You speak as one of the foolish women speaks. Shall we indeed accept good from God and not accept adversity?” In all this Job did not sin with his lips (Job 2:7-10).
Stan, can you imagine your own wife encouraging to do thus? The wife can be a very powerful influence. Amen?
Btw, are you the stan over @ Independent Conservative? If you are, kudos to your response to Rick Warren’s comments at the Davos Conference: you nailed it, man!
This was great. I am going to share this with a few people.
All I can say is WOW! I will link this on my site as well!!
Thank You and may God Bless You!
I thank God for bringing another soul out of Egypt aka…WOf, prosperity movement, name it claim it jargon. My family and I went thru almost the same thing spiritually and financially.,,,but PRAISE GOD,,,ALMIGHTY,,, FOR CALLING US OUT TOO !!
May God protect you and be your teacher and may your testimony bring many more out of the bondage of lies. Amen
Another important reason for this site; it’s kinda like group therapy for those of us reformed “ho’s” out there. I used to post alot of comments, but now I find myself so enthralled at reading the back and forth dialouge, and someone always “steals my thunder”, that I find my time slipping away, and that is a testamnet to the quality of the postings on here. Melvin, this site is becoming one of the “essentials!”
Ditto rev, ditto.
BBD and Melvin, I do thank you both for your respective contributions to this most pervasive issue with the fleecing in the church, because this is PRECISELY what it is.
I am also active in finding a new church home in the PHL area. I have been with the current WOF congregation since September 2002 (accepted membership three months later). Needless to say, I was giving quite heavily myself, not having the understanding then as I do now, given, what I believe, to be the Holy Spirit’s moving me to read this blog and Independent Conservative (I have been a consistent reader of these sites since last August).
Since stepping back and taking a full assessment of what has and is going on here, coupled with the flawed theology that has been exposed here and elsewhere, I have ceased tithing and all other monetary support. This current ministry has strong ties to IV Hilliard, Mike Murdoch, Creflo Dollar, Bill Winston, Leroy Thompson, Kenneth Copeland and Tim Storey. It is also one that has heavy support for Lakewood Church (Joel Osteen) and continually sends people from this church to volunteer (read: provide FREE SERVICE) whenever he comes town.
Right now, the church is on a huge push to increase its membership to acclaim a parcel of land to build “a campus” which will include a “state of the art worship center.” Right now, membership appears to be on the decline, primarily because another congregation recently built and opened a much larger and newer facility a few miles away while others are walking away disillusioned. When pressing former members for why they left, the standard answer usually is “…because it was time…” or “…my spirit just didn’t feel right…”
Just as Sharon mentioned, the majority of the people tied to these churches are hiking it on public transit, taxis or driving cars with only a half a mile’s capability left on them. The rest that do have the luxury vehicles are likely living paycheck-to-paycheck, renting their living quarters, lacking in other areas and skipping meals for the sake of a facade. They cannot afford to continue the “prosperity” lie.
In the face of the worst credit, housing, gas, oil, food and job crisis in our recent history, it angers me to NO end to see this CONSTANT push for people to give what they DON’T have. None of these items are mentioned in the course of what scriputure speaks regarding adverse life situations becoming manifest in these last days, and what we need to do to prepare. People are looking for plausible help and results, not another “breakthrough.”
The church is situated in an increasingly undesirable area (for nearly 10 years), yet the head is more interested in moving and growing the church in a different area than helping those most in need where they are with the members they have left. Mind you, it has failed in its last three or four recent attempts (and lost THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS) to acquire parcels of land and/or buildings in this unceasing quest to move.
You are right, BBD, these people are living their “best” lives now. Apparently, they have MUCH hell to pay at the end of their days.
N’Catina,
This was an awesome assessment of what goes on in these types of circles…You know, you should really post more…
Solus Christus,
R4C
R4C, I thank you for your response; I consider that a compliment.
I do not consider myself to be as “seasonsed” as some of the posters on here that give very comprehensive agruments on a much wider scale beyond the tussles on the prosperity/WOF mantra, thus my justifcation for being silent. However, I am on these sites multiple times a day to the degree that I am getting more of a quality bible lesson than what I could have ever learned being in a church setting.
I do use these sites as an opportunity to share with others in similiar situations to help those stuck in their ignorance and bondage.
Hello, N’Catina:
Please, get over the “seasoned” business.
It has been said, “We are just beggars offering another beggar a crumb.”
Come, dine with us. The crumbs are so tasty!
Cannot get John 5:39 off my mind!
Love,
Peter
PS: Weigh in, we need your input!
Dickkopf, I mentioned the term “seasoned” in the sense of not wanting to contribute to the blog on straight impulse or emotionalism to specific posts, but to gather a sufficient-enough background on what is discussed to contribute intellegently.
Given some sites discussing these otherwise highly emotional items, its best to sometimes fall back to absorb what is being communicated before responding. I have seen too many instances here and elsewhere of people giving input without throughly thinking through their post. As a result, I am forced to simply skip over what they write.
Yes, I agree with your assertion of the crumbs being “tasty” here. Matter of fact, I’m hungry. I’m heading off to lunch! :o)
N’Catina,that was an excellent post!! Thanks for joining us and welcome aboard!!
GaryV, thank you!!
As a Philadelphian, I have an idea of which church your former church could be. When I moved back after I finished college, I had considered going to several churches, many of the big name churches, etc. but everytime I would think about it, I’d never go through. I think in a way, the Lord was protecting me from even getting into the WOF madness because when I came back, I was in a rather fragile state as a Christian. However, he did lead me to a bible teaching and believing church here. Email me for the name, location, etc if you’re still looking.
As for Joyce Meyers… I considered attending one of her crusades back in 2003 after my 2nd yr of college. Every time I was going to get a ticket, something happened and the money was needed elsewhere. I’m so happy that the Lord in His graciousness kept me away from that and I’m happy that He led you and BooBoo’s Dad out of it. God knows who are truly His and He’ll never leave you in a situation if you are truly seeking Him and the truth which is only found in the Word of God.
Oh wow! This was great. Even when I had fallen for it I knew something was wrong I just didn’t know what until God started opening my eyes when I was willing to listen. People choose to accept the WOF lie because it caters to the flesh. Since most people equate outward appearance with what is going on with their soul. they think if it glitters it’s gold. I love the fact that I cannot tell God what He will do for me but rather I ask God what I can do for Him. The freedom that brings is hard to explain. I no longer spend time acting like a spoiled brat yelling at God because he ‘failed’ to hear me, when the reality of it was that I failed to listen and study for myself. I don’t have to sit down and check to see if I send more money to the church than I did to pay my bills. I no longer read the bible and find condemnation, I now find hope. I no longer go to a church where the only way I might get to see the pastor is if I make an appointment, and even then I might not see them. I go to a church where the pastor and 2 or 3 other members and I will go out to eat and talk and get to know each other. Joyce Myers and the like only offer bondage and a yoke that no oxen could carry.
BooBoo’s Dad,
Bless you for making this so plain…I think the problem with Joyce and many others is that at first glance it seems to look like orthodox teaching, but the deception is so subtle that it goes unnoticed, which leads to the things you discussed. I thank God that He led you out in His time, and do applaud you for sharing this with so many…This should be a reminder to the defenders of the pimps that false doctrine, regardless of the form, can be damaging, destructive and fatal. Bless you brother, and as I always say, KEEP IT COMIN’!!!!!
Soli Deo Gloria,
R4C
You see, if Your sWord [spelling is intentional] ain’t sharp [i.e. you ain't in the Word all day every day], then when false teachers come up, people will swallow it up quick-time…
In the three years I have been silently reading here, I have read many posts that have been almost a mirror image of mine … I have been encouraged to know that I wasn’t walking alone on the path out of the cult I was in, and for that I am deeply grateful to you all. Because of this, I am convinced that there are perhaps multitudes of others silently reading this blog now who are in various stages walking away. As I have been encouraged to keep going, I would like to encourage all those who are now where I was … keep going! You didn’t stumble upon this site by accident.
Stvmmom1012, I remember reading the post you made a long time ago when they referred to you as a “wounded warrior” … even back then, I felt a knot in my stomach for what you were/are going through! I especially wish to encourage you right now, as I can only imagine how difficult your life has been (is?). Like I said, I loved ALL of the T.V. ministers. I watched them all. Copeland and Hagin were my favorites back in the early 80’s. I was in my early 20’s then, and my greatest desire was to attend Rhema. I got an application to attend, but was intimidated by what I saw … there was a section on “Financial History” (on page 4) where it stated “The Administrators of Rhema Bible Training Center are fully aware that God is able to supply all the needs of our student body” … Then it goes on to say,
“Please identify how you plan to pay expenses (ALL CURRENT FACTS — NOT FOOLISHNESS OR PRESUMPTION!).”
*** to see the application, click here:
http://www.rhema.org/education/rbtc_1yr_forms.pdf
If I were ever going to attend Rhema, I knew the Lord would have to supply my needs, because I surely didn’t have any way to pay for it myself … I never submitted the application. I often wondered why they considered it “foolishness or presumption” to trust the Lord for provision; something that they say is guaranteed for a person who tithes … but none of that was enough to make me walk away. I figured that they knew more about God and the “God kind of faith” than I would ever know. Stvmmom1012, all I can offer you is encouragement, and I want you to know that I care … you have the prayers of many here!!!
Sometimes I have a tendency to get verbose here, but there are decades I could write about if I let myself do so (Joyce Meyer wasn’t my ONLY pimp/pimpette of choice … she was just my LAST!) I hope my long posts aren’t too problematic for the site, and I hope the site isn’t down too long, Melvin!
See how far ahead of me you were BBD?? I was stupid enough to read that financial page and STILL attend Rhema
You attended Rhema and preached on TBN … you really were a WoF-dog, GaryV!! You must have been much more involved in this than I was. What I don’t know is what was the catalyst for you to leave?
Yeah! I wanna know too! We considered uprooting our family and attending Rhema. Glad we didn’t, knowing what we know now.
Reading……..studying………begging God to show me the Truth when the nagging doubts wouldn’t go away no matter how many WoF books I read. I didn’t begin studying with the purpose of proving WoF wrong, but studying beyond the WoF literature tends to do that.
Church history and Jewish history were invaluable to me,because once I began to understand the interplay of forces that codified orthodox doctrine, one thing became glaringly clear:
WoF was nothing new. It was a Gnostic,metaphysical, pagan form of error that had been consistently rejected since the 2nd century. God wasn’t doing a “new thing”. The devil was replaying an “old thing”.
Thank God for His Mercy…….how many people did I damage teaching that garbage??
My guess would be that the people who heard you were already “damaged” … I don’t think that the messages you delivered were the first time the majority of those people heard it, so although your messages were in error at the time, I don’t believe you damaged anyone any more than they already were. And if that isn’t any consolation, then consider the fact that if God could lead you out of it, He could lead them out too … He knows those who are His even before they are free. Your past is forgiven. All you can do is continue on, knowing that everything happens according to His Will. But who am I to tell you that? Your knowledge of the ways of God far surpasses mine. Just thought I’d remind you that (unlike Copeland and the others), their blood is not on your hands. You have repented and hold to His teaching; you know the truth and the truth has made you free. The Lord would have to deal with them even if you had NEVER preached the WoF message!
I appreciate your comment and the fact that someone actually listened to me and didn’t judge me. My family does need everyone’s prayers that my husband will once again desire a relationship with God. He is one that is angry with God because he believes He failed us. God didn’t stop the train wreck that was becoming our lives even though we gave of our time, money, and resources. I know this isn’t a quick process to fix because it wasn’t a quick process to get here. But thank you all. I appreciate you.
I just had to gasp at some of the things on that application form! Appalling! Father, protect people from the lies and manipulation that application represents!
I had a perverse moment of wanting to complete the application, just so I could answer the question about how I know I’m filled with the Holy Spirit: “How do I know? Romans 8 and verse 9, sucka! And P.S., Does the concept of a unique moment in salvation history mean anything to you… ahem, book of Acts?”
i read the application. talk about thorough!! i wonder if all Bible schools ask for such personal information. i’m surprised they “only” specified homosexuality, drug use and spousal abuse as far as sinful practices
one has indulged in. why not, were you ever a rapist, prostitute, pedophile, and/or armed robber? i guess that would fall under the “have you ever been arrested?” category.
is all this information necessary for someone to hand you a degree that states you’re qualified to teach someone else the Word?
i think this application is very intrusive but perhaps it’s the norm. i won’t ever know though because i’ll never fill one out.
Hi MAV!! You mentioned the prominence of the homosexuality questions on the application. There’s good reason for that…..it’s been a serious problem over the years at Rhema as I discovered once I got out there. A SERIOUS problem (but no more than the OTHER sexual problems I encountered).
hey paisano, long time no “see” (warm smile)
actually, i wasn’t signaling out homosexuality per se but rather the fact that the application asks some very personal questions about a person’s past that i find to be irrelevant to their desire to pursue a degree.
perhaps, you can explain why it’s important to ask these kinds of questions? i’m thinking like this; if someone is serious about earning a theological degree with the earnest intentions of serving in a Christian atmosphere, then s/he has left the past behind and is pressing on in Chist-therefore, why drudge up the past? Phil. 3:14-15
however, if the applicant is insincere and not actually a believer, i assume they would lie about the answers to the questions.
so my point is, what is the reasoning behind the interrogation? (personally, i can understand asking for references from those who can vouch for your character, i think this is reasonable).
Mrs. Mav, for real. I think about “… and such were some of you, BUT you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified… (1 Cor 6:11, one of the most hopeful verses in Scripture!!).
Great points by both Mav and Laura!!
How about the ridiculous questions concerning height and weight?!
They probably deduct that if your height is minimal and your weight is disproportionately high, then you are guilty of the sin of gluttony … A sure sign of a self-indulgent slob who caters to the flesh (and probably not worthy of consideration) … nevermind that their entire message centers on self-indulgence and flesh-catering!! Did you notice where it says “weight,” it has “must answer” in parentheses? I guess they were having a problem with people not answering that.
I think Mrs. Mav is right … the application seems to focus on things that shouldn’t matter if they have been forgiven; things from the past that one cannot go back and change and should be left there if the Lord has thrown them into the “sea of forgetfulness.” And things that really should be irrelevant in the pursuit of a degree (although I think Rhema has never been an accredited institution of higher learning - correct me if I’m wrong). But Mrs. Mav, they do single out homosexuality, drug use, and spousal abuse … the other sinful practices you mentioned (rapist, prostitute, pedophile, & armed robber), may or may not be listed under the “have you been arrested” category, as there are many who have committed those crimes and haven’t been arrested for them. Do those sins get a free ride under “if they don’t ask, I won’t tell?”
GaryV, it’s difficult for me to imagine that Rhema would have a problem with homosexuality and other sexual sins. Even in the WoF, they are a no-no! It is beyond me how someone who knows they are struggling with such issues would want to become a spiritual leader in a denomination that expressly prohibits them. How could anyone possibly think they could help someone else with something they themselves are struggling with? But I guess if there was one Ted Haggard out there, there are probably more. And it also explains how we get people like Earl Paulk in positions of leadership.
(MN: Some people aren’t in it to help. They’re in it for the money. The Big Dogs and Dogettes come immediately to mind. The contradiction of actively walking in a sin and “ministering” to the saints never crosses their minds. While I can’t say who is reveling in their sins and who may be struggling, it should be clear that one who leads should not have an active and perverted sex life. )
I guess I find all of this difficult to believe, precisely because I have been so naive about the spiritual condition of the church leadership for so long, and have just recently become aware of this deep depravity as it is exposed … What is wrong with the church in America? (MN: Nothing is wrong with the church. It’s those people who are in it for the money who have departed from the truth. And they have dragged unbelieving “laymen” with them. )It is distressing, the depths to which the church has spiritually fallen. Only mournful repentance in sackcloth and ashes could possibly delay the judgment that is surely coming upon the collective soul of our Land … I wax poetic, but I am vexed and I do sincerely grieve for what is happening. (MN: I suggest the judgment is coming to the earth - when our Lord and Savior returns. And don’t be vexed. Remember, Paul said, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, that men will get worse and worse. All the stuff around us is doing is validating the Bible. )
BBD, as to your question of why homosexuality and other sexual sins would have such reign in Rhema, I believe you answered your own question here:
“They probably deduct that if your height is minimal and your weight is disproportionately high, then you are guilty of the sin of gluttony … A sure sign of a self-indulgent slob who caters to the flesh (and probably not worthy of consideration) … nevermind that their entire message centers on self-indulgence and flesh-catering!!”
As you astutely pointed out, the entire WoF stew is centered upon gratifying the flesh…….money, power, “stuff”, etc.
While sexual sin is looked down upon and preached against, there’s an inherent contradiction in doctrine that’s worked out in lifestyle.
Doesn’t it seem natural that when you spend your time, resources, and money investing completely in a culture that promotes satisfying the flesh every OTHER arena, that attempts to isolate JUST ONE area of the flesh as forbidden would be doomed to failure??
The flesh can’t be compartmentalized like that……….lust is lust though it manifests itself in various forms, and an empowered flesh will always seek to express itself ESPECIALLY through forbidden channels.
The very fact that sexual sin is the ONE area of fleshly lust that is forbidden in a theology dedicated to WORSHIPING fleshly lust makes sexual sin the MOST likely area in which to fall.
Remember Adam and Eve………they could eat of ANY tree in the Garden with ONE exception. But that was the ONE Tree that they couldn’t resist.
Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food (fleshly), and that it [was] pleasant to the eyes (fleshly), and a tree to be desired to make one wise (fleshly), she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
This is human nature……….WoF can grant you EVERY fleshly tree in the Garden, but it’s the ONE FORBIDDEN TREE that becomes irresistable. And in WoF,the one forbidden tree is sexual sin.
Between my first and second year,there were several students booted out when the female students were discovered to have been impregnated by male students. Then there is the separate homosexuality issues. And beyond that, other forbidden tree issues manifested by having many students from the graduating class preceding mine having their diplomas rescinded after being caught drunk at a “Kegger” celebrating their graduation. Then there are the issues with abusive husbands being discovered beating their wives in the dormitories,etc etc etc.
Nope,it makes perfect sense. You can’t intensely teach folks to feed their flesh in order to get their lusts fulfilled, then try to dictate WHICH lusts that empowered flesh is allowed to manifest itself through.
Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye CANNOT do the things that ye would.
The attempt to use the human will to control where the flesh manifests its lusts is doomed to failure.
You speak the truth Melvin … some are not going into the ministry to help people but serve themselves. I guess in my simple and honest interpretation of the word “service,” I find it difficult to wrap my mind around the idea that some who go into the Lord’s “service” aren’t doing so “to serve” but “to be served” — I guess I really just don’t understand how one could possibly get so much so backwards, which is notorious in WoF doctrine on so many levels.
As for me being “vexed,” I know you’re right about that too; that all this stuff going on around us is validating the Bible, and we have reason to rejoice knowing the Bible is true in predicting so accurately beforehand that all these things would happen … but I say it, because as I become more aware of the depravity that comes to light in the spiritual leadership of a religion that I so completely and fully embraced, I honestly must say that I feel like Lot must have felt before God delivered him. In 2 Peter 2:7-8 it says that Lot was “vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked: For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds.”
Yes, we know the Bible is true and what it says about the future is happening in our time (the future is now); men are getting worse and worse and the ENTIRE chapter of 2 Peter 2 is taking place before our eyes! I went back and read that chapter again, and every word of it from verse 1 to verse 22 describes with COMPLETE accuracy what is happening with WoF leaders and those who follow them. I was particularly struck today with verse 10, how it describes the 6 “ministers” who are defying the Senate investigations. The whole chapter is referring to the false prophets who “with feigned words, make merchandise of you,” and what their fates will be. Each time I read it, it is with a sense of awe at it’s accuracy and I know these things “must needs be;” however, in spite of the fact that I know these things validate the Bible, I cannot help but to relate to “that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds.”
How I wish that the sheeple would read the 2nd chapter of 2 Peter, and see it for what it is! “He who has ears to hear, let him HEAR!”
Honestly, part of the allure of the WoF culture for me was precisely the “perks” of the ministry. I’m ashamed to admit it, but it’s true.
Money, authority, adulation………I’d be lying if I said I didn’t consider that when I went off to Rhema. And I got a bit of that too. If you had asked me at the time I would have denied it. But looking back, I know that was part of the motivation though I didn’t want to face it.
And once again GaryV, your insights never cease to amaze me … as yet another light turns on in my head with your explanation above. It makes perfect sense, but on my own I don’t think I would’ve ever thought of that.
BBD,
To piggyback off of GV’s statement of the allure of the WoF movement, I wasn’t as deep in it as some, but I was caught up in the hype. Can’t say that I ever bought into the name it and claim it, Abracadabra, hocus-pocus in the name of Jesus our Genie and Sugar Daddy teachings (it just never lined up with reality nor the Bible as a whole). But I picked a different poison. The “appearance” of super spirituality (every one knows: the “signs and lying wonders” of “speaking in the language of angels”–even though 99.99 percent of the time there would be 100 babblers and not a single interpreter–and “profit lying or prophelying”–it dawned on me at a subconscious level that a true prophet has to be 100 percent and a lot of the prophets were either too vague on their forecast or just plain missed the mark; to be honest, those who wear prophet as a handle to their name or claim the “gift” probably can’t even claim to be right half of the time) and how the movement crossed denominational lines. Ironically, I was a believer BEFORE I even knew of the real gifts of the spirit and the imitation gifts. But the movement has a way of making people feel as if they are lacking if they don’t have a charasmatic gift or a fancy handle on their name. And make no mistake about it, I coveted those so-called gifts that the charasmatic crew boasted about and “manifested.” Thankfully I can read, otherwise I wouldn’t have noticed that what they were doing didn’t actually line up with the scriptures they used to explain themselves.
Peace Out.
BD, I guess I am one of those silently reading. Years ago I was into Joyce Meyer but I just stopped. I couldn’t tell you why. Well yes now I know why but it is just like I moved on. I couldn’t listen to her teaching anymore; whereas before her teaching seemed so practical. Well God by His Sovereignty moved me away from that.
Now I am thinking that due to my own presumption I am at a re-packaged WOF church. No you don’t hear Copeland, Hagin, etc. from the pulpit but it is re packaged into some upwardly mobile, empowerment, entrepenuer jargon. I hope I am making sense.
I have mistakenly thought that I could be okay with nominal preaching b/c I study for myself. Hey I just wanted to be part of a fellowship. But the Word of God is clear re. Church discipline. The Bible does not make exceptions for the Pastor. If he is a so-called brother, i.e. covetous, an idolator, immoral, etc. then the Church is to judge him as well.
I participate in an indepth Bible study group (I praise God for it) and we are studying Revelation and we are just on the first few chapters right now regarding Jesus’ messages to the Church. I am realizing that Jesus is not that babe in the manager or that suffering Lamb. But in Rev. 1:12ff, He is described in such way that shows He is prepared for judgment. And who does He start with? The Church. And one of the things He says that He will judge the Church for is tolerating false doctrine. See Rev. 2:14ff, 20ff.
God is so gracious and kind to show me truth. He is so loooooongsuffering. He speaks to me through His word but I am so hard headed. I think I understand something and I realize apart from Him I know nothing at all. Praise God for this site, Melvin, others I have met through Stand Up ministry, and the conference calls because through the fellowship I have been encouraged to stand for truth. I wrote a letter to my Pastor and I have been so afraid to send it that it sat a week on my computer and another 2 days on my counter in printed form but today I am putting it in the offering. Thank you all for listening to me go on and on. I hope Melvin posts this but if he doesn’t it was helpful to get it all out.
(MN: Girl!! Why would I not post this?!?! I am a BENEVOLENT dictator, not a stupid one. )
Melanie, Your post was outstanding. I hope you stay around and join in more!
GaryV, Thanks. I am staying around. I hover. I read the posts on an almost daily basis and only post when I have something to say or add.
P.S. I did not put the letter in the offering plate, I realized that I was doing it with the wrong motives. I have made some commitments but once that is done if the Lord says the same, I am out.
Lately, I think I am being noticed for my insubordination. Because I am in a leader position I am expected to go to Wed night Bible study. So I went the past three Wed ’s and took a break. I got an email from the pastor’s wife. I got a call from someone at the church but they did not leave a message. After the 8am service and before Sunday School they sing this Cameo re-mix of the song ???(don’t remember) and instead say “Word Up that’s what the Bible says” instead. So we are all expected to lift our Bibles up to the beat of the music. I don’t. It is a nice beat so I bob my head. The youth pastor looks back and sees my insubordination. Maybe I am paranoid but I don’t think so but I just know I ain’t doing it.
On another note I learned just last week that the youth pastor and his wife came from Empowerment Temple in MD.
Yeah I just wanted fellowship but you really can’t have fellowship with folks who don’t share your faith, i.e. sovereigntly of God, a high view of God and His word.
Melanie at my church I have the people lift their communion glasses to a remix of the Gap band’s party train. You need to get with
it sista’ just raise your bible to the beat of the funky drummer.
Seriously that sounds foolish. Thank you for your testimony.
Melvin, thanks for your benevolence. I was late on that weekly love offering so I did not know what to expect. LOL.
Hi Melanie……I’m afraid your response has put me in the unenviable position of informing you that you are subject to the Mandatory Lurker Offering.
This is because your sporadic posting habits make it unlikely that you will be tithing and giving regular sacrificial Love Offerings to the BD, yet you are still here gleaning from the Word like it’s f—fr—–free (gags a little at the thought).
I will be in touch to provide you with a payment schedule and a coupon booklet. After all, Jesus paid an enormous price so we could have the Word. We’re just trying to help Him recoup some of His investment.
(MN: And remember - in God we trust. Everybody else pays with cash or certified checks. )
@Melvin and GV, LOL. You guys are too much.
I don’t have cash on me or certified check so here is my credit card no: 999-yeah-right exp. date is when -cows- fly-2009
Thanks BooBoo’s Dad for your testimony. I didn’t spend 30 years inside the WOF deception but I did spend money on them. I used to receive the Believer’s Voice of Victory from the Copelands and actually ordered a tape series on how faith is your “servant”. How he got that from Luke 17:6-7 I don’t know but I had my “servant” out there getting me something or at least I thought it was.
Anyway, after several years of disappointing results that I blamed myself for and getting mad at God for not “honoring His Word above His name”, I slowly came to the realization that God Is Sovereign and not obligated to obey me, my demands, faith “formulas”, or scripture “spells”(if you will). I thank Him for giving me a desire for His Word so that I would read ALL of it and not just the proof texts.
Hebrews 11 is a great chapter about the heroes of faith that mentions those “others” in verses 35-38. Verse 39 states:
Oh my!! That is exactly what I have been telling a few people over the past few weeks.
The leader of my local fellowship actually quoted Hebrews 11:3, and since I’m not one to take one verse and run with it out of 20+, I read the entire chapter and almost went bezerk. How can you tell someone they will receive whatsoever they pray for (seek and find, knock and the door opens, etc.) when the heroes of faith as you called them didn’t receive what they had been promised. That was my question: What makes me better than Abraham, Sarah, Moses, or for that matter David, who was a man after God’s own heart?
This site - along with IC - has been a God-send to me these past few weeks. I have really been struggling, and I can truly relate to Boo Boo’s Dad, although I was not a supporter of the true TV pimps. There are some local ones here that if they had their way would be just like them, and I’m afraid to say that the leader of my local fellowship just may be going down that road. We are having church conference in a couple of days (that will determine a lot for me especially since I will make my opinion known), and I’m sure it is only to justify the decisions they have recently made and to ask for more money. I’ll keep you all posted, and please pray not only for my spiritual well-being, but that God bridles my tongue because when I get excited, I REALLY get excited.
Sorry if I carried on too long, your lordship/blogmaster Melvin. My apologies….
Eyes Wide Open, I’m interested in the results of this meeting myself….we are about to enter into a “conference period” where, no doubt, the emphasis will be on giving for promises that may never likely materialize.
Eyes Wide Open,please do keep us apprised of the outcome of that meeting. My curiosity is certainly piqued, and I’m sure I’m not alone.
EWO, just curious, is your church under a denom and if so what would it be. I have been doing some thinking on things (ie different denoms) and I am curious to see if denoms are playing a certain role and if one, how deeply they affect the sheeple. Thanks
Yes the denom is Baptist.
I find that interesting. When I went to a Black baptist college in the south in the early 90’s, there was an animosity stemming from black baptists (mainly preachers/pastors)against black pentecostals/charismatics ones. The young people were gravitating more towards the p/c camp because it seemed more energetic and full of life because of the preaching style and other happenings. I also believe that the older baptist preachers had a serious disconnect from the majority of the congregations. It seemed that the disconnect came from 1. airy preaching (the constant “milk” sermons instead of the meat) 2. a social gospel (black folk blaming the white man for everything) 3. the ever constant preaching on the need of education (when most young blacks didn’t think any longer about it the way their parents or grandparents did). Nowadays it seems that the fancier/ grandios style of preaching, having “chuwch,” and especially the influx of “prosperity thinking” has catapulted many from strong doctrinal stances to borderline heresy and definite pulpit pimpdom. God’s Word continues to ring ever true even against many denoms, “they will not endure sound doctrine..!”
BBD, that post was one of the most powerful presentations I’ve ever read on this or any other site. Thank you so much for taking the time and effort to reach out your hand to pull others out of that fire you endured for so long.
One of the great things about Melvin is his unerring eye for the power of a post like this, and his unselfishness in stepping aside to let others teach and share.
As to the kind words you had for me, let me say that I’m literally writing this through tears. No one knows better than I my many shortcomings, so your encouragement is truly appreciated.
Thanks for the post by BooBoo’s Dad. I can’t tell you how much I agree with him and thank God letting BB’s Dad the opportunity to share the truth. This website is great and I share it when possible. I can relate to the “…scales falling from the eyes…” analogy because of my experiences over that past 20 years.
Melvin, keep up the good work. God bless you!
MN, this is an EXCELLENT message that is related to the entire WOF fiasco, doing great justice in helping to conquer the superstart syndrome that has allowed the church to become rancid…http://www.heartlandfamily.com/
Be sure to scroll to the bottom for an audio sermon entitled “The Man of God Sindrome” (deliberate misspelling)
(MN: I gave it a brief listen. However, I was put off by the section by Jack Hayford (a friend of Fred Price, Charismatic/Pentecostal/etc. )
Greetings, Melvinites!
Care to provide Sen. Grassley with some input concerning his investigation into the dealings of the Gang of Six?
Here is your chance:
http://grassley.senate.gov/public/index.cfm?FuseAction=Contact.Home
Many thanks Boo Boo’s Dad for your most articulate summation of the tactics and harm of the “health/wealth” gospel. I too wasted about 10 years of my Christian life in such an environment. I bought it all - hook, line and sinker! And all I ended up with was stress, confusion, pride, and fake Christianity. I am so thankful to God for getting me out of that. When I could no longer deny the questions I was having or the abuses I was seeing, I finally fell on my knees before God to ask Him to forgive me for worshiping a man - That’s what it really boiled down to.
Then I prayed for God to feed me a steady diet of truth. And he has done that. One by one God confronted each of the false doctrines I had believed and from the scripture showed me truth.
Now I have a Christianity that has to deal with the reality of hardship as well as times of great joy. I realized that I was drawn to the health/wealth message because it promised a life of no more pain. And that’s not a reality for anyone.
The truth is much better. I get to have real Christian relationships & friendships where we can talk about real issues, study the Bible together, learn and grow and get to know a living Savior whose love is mind-boggling.
I’m now looking forward to the return of Christ while making the most of the time I have now.
I’m also praying for some of my family members who are still caught up in the health/wealth gospel. It’s not working for them either, but they’re afraid to admit it - since that would be a “bad confession”.
Anyway, thanks for sharing!
God bless you
“Real christian relationships!” … isn’t it a relief to be able to talk to another christian without having to “check your words” before they leave your mouth? How many times have I heard “you get what you say,” or “no wonder you’re always defeated, listen to what you’re saying!” That puts one under the worst kind of guilt and condemnation, especially when you read verses in the Bible like Mark 11:23 with the WoF interpretation slapped onto it.
I hated having to watch my mouth in front of other “christians” … saying I wasn’t sick when I was sick as a dog, or saying that my needs were met till I was blue in the face, when many times they were NOT met!! All along, many other “christians” would imply that I had no faith. How can one be real with people like that, when a facade had to be kept up just to be able to face them? Knowing the truth sets one free in so many areas … now that I know the truth, I’m not afraid of the way I talk in front of a WoFer … I really do not care what they think of me anymore. I’m not condemned for what I say or what I do not say, as it relates to speaking faith-filled words. Joyce says our words are “containers for power!” … Oh yea? Well “what if they’re not?” Hagin used to always claim “you get what you say!” … Oh yea? Well “what if you don’t?”
You hit this right on the head CAL, WoF churches are full of fake christians who aren’t honest with themselves, with each other, or with God. Many of them know they live a “Jekyll & Hyde” existence, but like you say, their fear of a “bad confession” keeps them in that bondage.
I have family members still in it … and it’s really sad, because almost all lines of communication have been closed. My grandmother (who has been a devout follower of Hagin and Roberts since the late 50s-early 60s), and I haven’t spoken in almost a year now. She’s 85 years old and doesn’t have much time left on this earth. I tried to tell her about the error of Benny Hinn one day and it kind of shocked me how she came back with the “putting your mouth on the man of God” thing … it’s really sad. She will NOT go to church. She says she gets her church from the T.V. My family is divided. My mother and her still talk, but their relationship is strained. I think my mother tries harder than I do, because she’s her daughter. Relationships are broken because of the WoF heresy, but it’s even more difficult when it’s family. But I cannot be “fake” anymore. I will not be in bondage to “Words of Faith” even if this is what that means. The meaning of Matthew 10:35 has come front and center in my life. I ask for your prayers for those in my family who are still trapped, and you know you have mine!
hi bbd,
just hearing you recount what you’ve been thru reminds me of when i was a new believer. my cousin gave me hagin’s book, “how to turn yourfaith loose”. i remember reading about how, if you had a headache or some pain, you were to “take authority” over it in the “spiritual realm” which would then manifest itself in the natural realm. the instructions further said that if you were still experiencing pain, that it was “only the devil trying to trick you with the symptoms” and that your faith should be in what Christ said and not your feelings. this teaching further stated that since the Word said by His stripes we’re healed then don’t go letting the devil put on you what Jesus took off of you.
so in essence, you had to deny what you were truly feeling as evidence that you trusted God’s Word to do what it said. you weren’t “really” sick- it was all just a test of your faith! reading that crap made me say- i can’t take these mind games!! i don’t believe God plays with our heads; if God heals us, then we’re not going to have no doggone symptoms, period! this sounded more like some repackaged dianectics foolishness. i never got that deep into it because there were just too many “formulas” and steps to remember to “get God to perform His Word”. s m h.
Hello, mrs. maverick:
You are using punctuation in your post.
(MN: And Righter has been using first person. Talk about shaking the foundations of the world. What next? Democrats pusing tax cuts? )
LOL!
When Mav starts to capitalize and Righter starts attending an all-white church, it’s Armegeddon.
Hmm…
hi dickkopf,
i always use punctuation when i write. what i don’t do, is caps (unlessing, of course, it has to do with my God) but thanks for noticing me. (blushing) :o)
Hello, mrs. maverick:
Of course, I have noticed you; yea, you are one of the shining lights on the Munificent Despot’s blog.
John 5:39
Mav, here’s something I never could reconcile about that Haginite teaching on healing.
If my head hurts, I rebuke the pain in Jesus’ Name. If my head STILL hurts after that, it’s just the devil tricking me. So,what was the point?? Either way….whether the headache stayed or the devil is tricking me…..I still need a couple aspirin.
Aspirin??? Why Gary, you of all people should be astute enough to know that according to our friend Suzanne Hinn, all you need is a Holy Ghost enema right up your (you know what)…If you keep up this nonsense, I’m going to have to revoke your pimp license…Shame on you!!! (LOL!!!!)
Seriously my friend, I have to say that I have been ruminating on a post you made a few days ago, and I just haven’t been able to get it off of my mind…Before I mention what it’s about though, let me say to both Booboo’s Dad and dickkopf that I too have benefited from GV’s seemingly endless stream of accurate doctrine…(By the way Gary, since we have interacted offline, you know how much I’ve learned and gleaned from you. So I know I don’t say it much, but I really appreciate everything you do. Besides, knowing your personality, I didn’t think I needed to get all mushy and stuff…(smile)…)
Anyways, the post I am referring to deals with when BBD and GV were conversing, and if I’m not mistaken, I thought that I read that GV used to preach, and even preached on TBN??? (Didn’t know that bro’). Let me tell you why this struck a nerve with me. You see, I was also an ordained minister, but I was involved with the Sabellian heresy of the oneness doctrine. The funny thing is, although we did not believe in the Trinity (triune nature of God), we “fellowshipped” and “worshipped” with those who claimed they did. Let me explain. When doctrinal error is prevalent, one seems to be inclined and comfortable with making false doctrine a buffet of sorts. We pick what we want, and leave what we choose not to have. So here you have a sect of people (with whom I was involved) who believe in modalism, but also believe in the name-it-and-claim it WOF doctrine, but don’t believe in the Trinity, but can fellowship with those who do because the essential doctrine of the Godhead is not important enough for us to divide over, because we all believe that we are “God’s children” and He wants us to have better. So I can be with you in singing, raising money, casting out demons, shouting, dancing, speaking in tongues, prophelying…errr….ummm…I mean prophesying, and even endorsing certain political candidates as a community, because after all, “we all agree on those things”. But you know, I understand that you were “raised” like that, and I was “raised like this”, so we can agree to disagree on that other stuff, you know, doctrine, because after all, that’s not important enough for us to divide over. Confused yet? If you think YOU are, imagine spending over 30 years in that maze…This is why you can have the assistant presiding bishop of one of the largest oneness denominations (I’ll call him little Chucky), appear on TBN with other WOF adherents and feel completely comfortable. This is why (I’ll call him Trouble Doctrine) can tapdance and do the two-step with the greatest of ease when asked direct questions concerning his doctrinal stance: http://www.apologeticsindex.org/j11.html
This is why two prominent ministers (I’ll call them “pop weasel” and “pretty boy Clarence”) who logically should be diametrically opposed to one another regarding doctrine, can collaborate to produce this gobbledygook and call it unity:
http://www.letusreason.org/Onenes20.htm
These people care nothing about truth and error, or the difference thereof. All they are concerned with is what works, and as long as people eat it up and empty their bank accounts, the mind massacre will continue.
Ok, now that I’ve kind of given a backdrop, let me now express why GV’s post hit me like a ton of bricks. Although I was not yet nationally known, I was one who had leadership and influence over a decent number of individuals who looked to me for truth and biblical guidance. I shudder to think how many I could have led astray due to the great misunderstanding I had of who God was, and the huge deception that I was caught up in. Please, with the statements I am about to make, I intend in no way to make myself out to be anything, I’m just trying to make the picture clear for those reading. I can remember telling people they were “healed, blessed, delivered and on the verge of a breakthrough”, people telling me that “there’s something about what you have in your hands…there’s power in those hands” or “I just felt the “annointing” all over me when you were preaching!” or “Could you come and do a revival, preach/minister/sing?”…etc., etc.,…and on and on…Although this was happening, and I don’t doubt that there was a possiblity that I was being used of God despite myself, I knew that I wasn’t properly studying prayerfully seeking the Lord, giving due diligence to the text, or saying to people what I knew God wanted them to hear according to scripture. Because I had been in church so long, knew exactly what to say and had the gift of gab, I could manipulate the scriptures to say just about anything I needed them to say in order to get the desired result. The reason that I can now see right through individuals like JHB for instance, is because I used the same colloquiallisms, had the same mannerisms and wrapped the same error-filled dung in pretty wrapping paper with eloquent words and empty promises of blessings and prosperity to the hearers. I sincerely believe that had I continued the same route, there is a great possibility that I could be one of the pimps featured on these very pages…To God I am extremely grateful for the opening of my eyes…It is only because of Him that I had the wherewithal to walk away from the supposedly “big and bright future” I had in so called “ministry”. Since I walked away from the madness, my wife asks me from time to time, “So Baby, do you feel that God still wants you to be a minister (and ultimately pastor) at any point in the future?” My response to her is always the same. I feel as though there are so many lives that I have damaged with false teaching, that even though the gift is there, I can’t imagine ever being in that position again. I think it’s because I have really been made aware of how much I fall short and how much of God’s grace I need to exist, that it is enough for me just to be counted among the elect. I sometimes ponder and reflect upon all of the poor, misled souls that could very well be in that position due to my irresponsibility as a supposed bearer of God’s truth. I realize that God forgives, and I believe that He has, but I can certainly relate to what GV is talking about when he asks himself the question “how many have I possibly led into error?” This is why I am devoted to doing everything possible to help those who may not be privy to the wolves be able to distinguish truth from error and see Christ for who He really is. Even though it was Mel’s deadpan sarcasm, comedy and satire and GaryV’s irresistable wittiness and humor that was used as a vehicle to draw me, moreso it has been the rich doctrinal truth and biblical content that has kept me coming back. The obedience and diligence of these two gentlemen coupled with God’s divine purpose has helped me to virutally make a quantum leap in regards to biblical understanding. In addition, I’m grateful for all of my PP family, the old heads and the new additions. I believe it is an example and witness of God’s sovereignty and goodness. As always, all of your thoughts are anticipated and appreciated, so KEEP IT COMIN’!!!!!!!.
Solus Christus,
R4C
(MN: I understand how you feel. However, I hope there is a chorus of “Don’t be an idiot!” once I post this. Yes, your teachings left a lot of people open to damage. On the other hand, Paul’s teachings actually, really, literally damaged people. Let me ask the obvious question: If God is gracious enough to save Paul (after all Paul did - thinking he was doing right) and use paul to build up the body, what can He do with you? While I respect the hesitation and the humble fear of stepping into formal pastoring (no one in their right mind would chase true shepherding), don’t shut the door. Maybe just leave it cracked so God won’t have to break the lock if He does decide to move you back into that arena. )
Mel,
Thanks bro…I can always count on you to get straight to the point, and I really needed that no-nonsense slap in the face…Makes total sense…cracking the door as we speak…
Solus Christus,
R4C
R4C, Brother thank you so much for your post. I as a pastor of a small non denom church. Have not been bitten by the “wanna be a big dog in the kingdom ” bug. However I am not foolish enough to think that without the continual submission to the sovereign Lord and His will. I too could be tempted to follow the devilish trends of WOF, emergent or the new agey self actualization mess that has crept into the church.
It is honest people like yourself Gary V and others that (along with the Spirit of course)
help to keep me in check. I as a undershepherd of the Lord don’t want to damage HIS sheep in any form or fashion. I love Him and His people too much. That is why I ask the congregation to pray for me all the time. I extend that request to all of the fam here as well. I realize that to some, I as the pastor should have it all together and be a rock for the people. Well I need Jesus just as much as any of the saints do. Any honest pastor will admit he needs the comfort that the Spirit of God provides. I once had a pastor who I respect tell me to never let the congregants hear that you are feeling weak or have struggles. I just can’t put on a front like that. I am not talking about complaining or whinning before people but showing that the pastor is no spiritual superman. I truely believe that the Lord is in the process of exposing men who walk in arrogance and attempt to lead HIS people in their own strength and fleshly knowledge.
I thank God for this site all the time because it is truely helping set the captives free. It is also instumental in preventing others whether they are a pastor or not from going down the same twisted demonic road.
R4C, the kingdom neeeds you brother.
Thank you for the encouraging post R4C!! I wasn’t yet a Big Dog, only a puppy. I preached on local TBN, not national. Don’t want the impression to outstrip reality.
But public speaking was my forte way before I knew enough doctrine to earn the right to speak publicly. And unfortunately, if you know how to move folks doctrine generally doesn’t matter very much.
We’re starting a very small home fellowship here, and hopefully what gifts I’ve been given can now be used to move folks to God rather than false doctrine (or worse, to myself).
I know I fear myself in that respect. I loved the adulation, and the elevation, and being marked by elders as an “up and comer”. No sense denying it or putting a false front on it. The thought that I might put myself before God again that way terrifies me, so y’all pray for me.
JCrep32,
Thanks so much!!! I really needed that encouragement…I respect and commend you highly in the Lord for the work you are doing as a local pastor…I’ve often believed that it is one of the most important positions one can have, due to the nature of what God requires from shepherds. I’m humbled by your kind remarks and uplifting words. It’s really too much, as I don’t consider myself to be worthy of any compliment. I’m thankful for God’s continued grace in my life, and individuals like you who He has allowed me to encounter on this journey. Keep me in your prayers, and I will do the same for you.
Soli Deo Gloria,
R4C
The main reason why this element (guaranteed healing just by uttering Hocus Pocus in the name of Jesus I am healed) of the WoF teaching just didn’t stick with me was that if it was a valid teaching–even for those who subscribe to it–at least some people who had enough faith would not die. At least a handful of people at the very least, and of course I’m not referring to those who are alive when Christ cracks the sky.
Wonderful wonderful testimony!!!! Amen and amen! My husband and I have been out of the WOF movement for 2 years now. We went thru wondering “why isn’t it working?” “What are we doing wrong?” ETC. I do thank God that He pulled us out of that.
Has anyone else noticed the common refrain from everyone that has left the WoF behind?
“GOD pulled me out”
“GOD opened my eyes”
“GOD set me free”
“GOD caused the scales to fall”
No coincidence there. He alone gets the Glory. Praise His Name!!
Not sure who he is, but he seems to break it down pulpit-pimp style.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Azf-Mi-4J5I&feature=related
I have never been in the WOF movement, but I have learned enough (thanx MN) about it that I will never have to get involved with that bondage! I will say that the WOF influence on some non affiliated churches I have been are evident. I happened to be reading this site and went to the pastor’s page. It said “From the Pastors Heart”. And this is what was written:
I thought how utterly sad. The site was a free subdomain so the pastor is probably some struggling joe trying to make his pimpmaster happy by being rich.
Is this the sum of the WOF insanity?
A short answer……yes.
With your permission, Melvin the Great, I would like to send you a copy of the recording I plan to make of this meeting that will be held on tomorrow night. I am unsure how to provide a link to it, but I’m sure you will be able to do it if I send it to you.
Incidentally, I was told that he made a statement in church regarding the meeting: ” I hope the devil doesn’t show up.” Would the devil show up in a person (like myself) who would dare ask a question that would challenge the mighty Undershepherd of the Good Shepherd (the moniker he has given to himself)?
As I requested in my previous post - pray for me….
Let me ask a question that we all know the answer to> If i were to purchase or even recorded a series of messages off TBN of any of these **Ahem** pastors and had a showing at let’s say a large auditorium for free to all those who wanted to see, Would i be sued? If so, why should i because i am helping get the gospel out right?
To sum this up, i have to ask this: If God has sent you out to spread the gospel, whom it is meant for? If your answer is “to sinners, then what if they don’t have the money to purchase your videos/audios from your site or television? i gues it was not meant for them to hear THE GOSPEL PREACHED BY YOU RIGHT? But God sent you right?
To answer your first question, yes, a lawsuit would be legally justified, because having a large gathering in place to view a video/DVD would greatly affect sales of their products–disclaimers would periodically appear before the start of each broadcast. This is along the same lines as opening the doors to a pay-per-view, NFL Superbowl, cable/satellite TV boradcasts. The “success” of these broadcasts and materials hangs on the amount of units sold (recorded broadcasts) and the individual number of people watching from the privacy of their OWN HOMES (ratings).
Nonetheless, because so much of what they put out is polluted, it would be a “wash” with you showing heresy in a crowded room.
So it is a “business” and they are in it for the cash. Hmmmm. Paul must have missed it in his day. He should have charged fore those epistles/letters that he sent out huh? The disciples should have questioned jesus when he told them not to take any money on their journey. maybe they should have taken up an offering as they went. What’cha think?
I would venture to say that these pastors will be quick to tell you they are spreading the gospel, For a price that is. (wink wink)
Don’t get me wrong; I believe that one who teaches the Gospel should indeed be compensated for the work they do PROVIDING that it is done such that it is not to the detrement (sp?) of their audiences by way of schemes and false doctrine.
If anyone can help put forward information in a consolidated format (music, books, etc.) that can help a person in their walk with Christ.
This is not to discount the Bible, but I believe that people can find materials that can be of use to someone’s practical situations, providing the subscriber is discerning of what they pick up.
You bet’cha it’s a business! Those “ministries” are nothing but money-making machines!! The first time I ever went to see Joyce Meyer in Tulsa, I brought my video camera and was filming the beginning of the worship service, when I was accosted by one of the ushers and at least 4 of her security people. They surrounded me and were talking on their radios like I was a criminal, and let me know in no uncertain terms that videotaping the service was NOT allowed! I tried to explain that I just wanted to film it for my own personal use … that I just wanted something to show I had been there, but those people wouldn’t have any part of it and threatened to confiscate my camera if I didn’t turn it off, take the battery off of it, and put it under my seat. I was literally shocked at how they talked to me. I was a LOYAL follower of Joyce, and didn’t mean any harm by having my camcorder there. I obediently did as I was told, as I was sure that I was about to be escorted out of the building if I had continued trying to explain. I was told that if I wanted a video of the service, I could buy it when it becomes available!! For the rest of that “service,” those security guards never got very far from me … I felt like I was being watched the whole time, and it was very uncomfortable in there.
But even after all that, it still wasn’t enough to make me walk away from her, because I thought that she was preaching God’s Word, and that this is what God wanted for her. You know, how the “workman is worthy of his wages” (I don’t think the Bible says it quite this way in Matthew 10:10, but that’s what I’ve always heard them say.) I figured that Joyce was entitled to make her money and have her reasons for what she allows and doesn’t allow in her meetings. I just wondered why they couldn’t have posted any signs stating no cameras at the door … it could’ve prevented alot of embarrassment for me or anyone else who may not have known.
Funny thing though … that same usher who was so nasty to me about the camcorder, sure had a big smile on her face when she handed me the big white offering bucket at collection time. It’s one big money-making business, and they will protect their income sources in any way they can. It’s despicable and I long for the day that our Lord decides “this is enough!”
Imagine if you will: It is the year 2008 and Jesus is teaching the multitude of nearly 5,000 men besides the women and children. In comes BBD with his camcorder to try and get a glimpse of Jesus speaking. But wait here comes the disciples to take away his camera because they did not want BBD to take away money out of Jesus’ ministry by having his sermon on video. His disciple says to Jesus, Lord what if he shows this to others, how much money would we lose by not selling to those who would watch it for free? Now the common question we have asked so many times, WWJD?
Now let’s bring an actual incident from Jesus’ day and place (insert a Bishop/Televangelist of you choice here) him/her in Jesus’ position. In Mark 10: 17-18 where the rich Young ruler (we will call him Bill Gates in 2008)approached Jesus about salvation. Bill Gates would ask (again, insert name) what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life? Pastor/Bishop (insert name) would say…………..
OK let’s give them the benefit of the doubt. Let’s just say to be politically correct they did offer the message of salvation, do you think their eyes would be on Bill Gates’ wallet also? Do you think they will tell him to give to the poor or give to their ministry(sow a seed)? Let’s not kid ourselves folks.
(MN: This one of a couple of postings by Anonymous. I have no idea what he/she is talking about, but he/she sure uses a lot of words to talk about it. )
You are not considered a false preacher only because you ask for money……you are a false preacher if you speak anything other than what the Lord (which spoke only what God the Father speaks), the prophets, and the Apostles spoke (which only speak what the Lord has given them through the Holy Spirit). There is a lot of false teaching on this site especially from the one that calls himself (not called by the Lord) the benevolent dictator. And not one of them that say they know the Lord on this site are humble enough to receive correction and they are teaching the unskilled and unlearned that visit this site false doctrine too. Satan loves what you are doing because you are still leading them astray. The only ones that somewhat get mad are the ones who love money and have not attained the riches the “gospel celebrity” false preachers have attained. None of the false preachers you highlight are affected in any way. They are still getting richer and fooling the whole nation……(you have not stopped anything). You assist Satan in deceiving too; because the ones you pull from the “gospel celebrities” you highlight are recommended by others on this site (including you) to more false teachers/preachers and their books, tapes, and sermons that you; being unskilled and unlearned, are following now and in return, you and others are preaching their false doctrine on this site still keeping millions in bondage (do you think the Lord is pleased?…..not). It seems that the only word you have is about false preachers that suppose that gain is godliness….that is the belief of most of the preachers these days…however, you as well have no real revelation of Jesus Christ. Don’t be one of them that cry Lord Lord and he says he knew you not. Even they cast out demons in his name. The Lord’s way is straight and narrow, has not hypocrisy, is no respecter of any man’s person, and is just, righteous, and truth. Only a few take hold to the way of righteousness (a remnant). You guys better stick with the bible and stop reading books, watching tapes, and going to listen to sermons from men which give their word and not the words of the Lord (but say it is). Christians say they believe in the word, they say that we are to obey the bible….I’ve seen it here. But your actions show that you don’t. What does the bible say. Do not add to his words, unless he reprove you and you be found a liar.(Prov. 30:6) but of course you don’t believe it truly otherwise you would be on one accord with all the true men of God and (1John said truly their fellowship was with the Lord and God the Father) But of course this will probably go no where since the benebolent ditator (misspelled on purpose) adds, takes away, and only reveals what he wants you to know…..
Hello, “Anonemus”:
Mispelled on porpoise. Ha!Ha!
One question for you: are you presently on mind-altering drugs?
Awaiting your informed response.
By the way, thanks for stopping by to provide a chuckle for us all.
It’s just FDM Mel. You can tell because of the way he quotes Scripture, but hasn’t the slightest idea what it means.
Another terrific object lesson for those who claim they are only taught by the Holy Spirit, yet ignore the Holy Spirit’s provision of the office of teacher in the church.
Hey FDM,how come all you guys who ignore the Holy Spirit’s provision of teachers in the church disagree with each other so much??
Do you all have different Holy Spirits??Or is the Holy Spirit just telling all of you dudes different stuff to mess with you??
This website has really helped me see the truth for what it really is!
it sad to see the fate of christain these days.. so hard to believe anyone anymore. If you ever want to find out the pastor, you just need to look for the fattest family in the hall.. the most preached sermon is tithes& giving in every church! I have literally heard a pastor threatening about those people who wont/cant give anything apart from the offerings. Sadly, sometimes this curse do take place. I come from a family of 4 children, parents still struggling to pay for our education. With all this “giving”, all we have in our rented house(we dont have a house of our own!) are broken plastic chairs, old furniture that make awful noises. Many of these pastors have come home, been fed with food we never see unless we have them over at our place, they lay their hands on us & see “visions” of prosperity & happiness. When we are still wondering how to pay for the food they just had. Before they leave, we give them money that we need to survive for a week. Not even once, as any pastor asked whether we starve ourselves or deprive ourselves of basic needs to keep their fat ass from working!
re: anonymous
what??
Melvin, Can we please get an interpretor?
Not only is it unnecessarily verbose, it ignores the clear need for people to be educated on how the pimps are after their money. Which they are.
How could anyone in their right spiritual mind not see that?
As I think about the comments by R4C, GaryV, BBD, and others about how God brought them out of false teaching, I have to jump and down and praise God and lift my hands. Yes I have no problem with emotionalism, if based on truth. I see the awesome of God in all that..
Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy, 25 to the only God, our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion, and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen. Jude 24-25
He is able to make us! I weep openly before my God at this point. Wow!
MY COMMENT IS THIS, I’M BLESSED TO HEAR SOMEONE HEAR THE VOICE OF GOD & NOT MAN. WE MUST KNOW HIS (GOD’S)VOICE & OBEY HIS VOICE. OR WE ARE NOT HIS. PLAIN & SIMPLE. MT 15: 13 & 14 STATES BY THE WORDS OF JESUS THAT EVERY PLANT, WHICH MY HEAVENLY FATHER HATH “NOT” PLANTED,SHALL BE ROOTED UP. “LET” THEM ALONE: THEY BE “BLIND” LEADERS OF THE “BLIND”. AND IF THE BLIND LEAD THE BLIND, BOTH SHALL FALL INTO THE DITCH. I JUST EMPHASIZED WITH THE QUOTATION MARKS. JESUS ALSO SAYS EVERYONE OF THE TRUTH HEARETH HIS VOICE. WE MUST WORSHIP GOD IN SPIRIT & IN TRUTH. AMEN! JESUS WARNS ALL BELIEVERS TO TAKE HEED & BEWARE OF FALSE PROPHETS & TEACHERS. READ 1 TIMOTHY 4:1 AS THE HOLY SPIRIT SPEAKETH. READ ALSO REV 3:17,20 THE HOLY GHOST IS SPEAKING TO ALL CHRISTIANS. REMEMBER WHO THE PRINCE OF THE POWER OF THE AIR IS ALSO AS WELL. EPH 2:2 GOD DOES COMMAND US TO BE NOT DECEIVED OR TO DECEIVE OURSELVES. COME ON NOW, GET ALONE WITH GOD & SEEK HIS FACE DAILY & MEDITATE UPON “HIS” WORDS AS WE WALK WITH HIM OR FOLLOW HIM. READ THE WHOLE CHAPTER OF MATHEW 15 & MEDITATE UPON WHAT JESUS SAYS. CHECK OUT YOUR PASTORS, PREACHERS, TEACHERS & PROPHETS. WHATEVER COMES OUT OF THE MOUTH OF GOD IS WHAT WE ALL WILL BE JUDGED BY. THANKS FOR THE SPACE. I WILL LEAVE SOME FOR SOMEONE ELSE. MAY GOD’S WORD BE OUR BLESSING IN ALL THINGS. AMEN!!
BTW, I miss you guys!! I’m having computer issues out here. I just wanted to give you all a heads up so you can have the opportunity to sow into your financial breakthrough by sending your most generous offering to “PCs For Pimps”.
I did naming and claiming to heal the pain from my right ankle that I fractured during my junior year in High School, and excema and did not work I thought that I have not having faith. I also have autism and I also thoutht that I going to heal about it and I still have it today. I realized that it is not my will, but only God’s will rather or not to heal me or not and he used them for HIS purpose. I wanted ot be save, but how I get saved without being deceived? I wanted a REAL THING.
Replying to BooBoo’s Dad
I am sorry that you feel that you were decieved by Joyce Meyer, I have listened to her on several occassions, and read some of her books, I also recieve her magazine, free of charge! NEVER have I been pressured for money, other than the usual appeals made by EVERY Christian organisation that I have ever come across. I am in my 70s, by the way, and have been a Believer for most of my life. I too dislike the “prosperity gospel” that is the hall mark of some preachers, I won’t name them, however, I am appalled by the underlying envy and jealousies that seem to ouze out of so many letters and comments posted on this site. If anyone “Gives in order to get” then I am sorry, but that is not the way taught in Scripture, and is doomed to fail. Nowhere are Believers instructed to give in order to be blessed, but we do have a responsibility to be good stewards of our substance. Tithing is O.T. and old law and not applicable in the days of grace. I have seen no evidence that Joyce preaches anything that is not based firmly in scripture. And I am not ignorant of scriptural teaching. Please do not let your obsession with material wealth, and envy of others, steal away the truth from you. As I say I am sorry that you have found life so hard, whoever said it would be easy! But your disappointment stems from a gross misunderstanding of what the Word actually says. I hope you will not continue to bad mouth Joyce, whose ministry has been a real blessing to so many folk.
Great Post!
Why all the money to Joyce? Do we or may we pay our way into Heaven?
The rage of Earth-Side is at hand? Is it just a 2012 skip away or is it later or has it already occurred and is “It” about to happen again? How many times would Greater Beings destroy our earth and us before just cashing in? “Well enough of this crazy experiment,” wrong and wrong and wrong equals enough.
The book or the story of our Revelations are a horror times terror times a forever march and the market of death and more blood and gore and death. How much blood does it take to win? Our own armies have proven that winning any war is a loss.
Oh yes! How about the death of our souls? Why not just take it all. Not Bang-Bang. A big flash and…oops there we go.
Secretly, are you really a member that Chosen few “straight to heaven” special group. Not many seats on that spaceship out of town. How does a person/soul become a winner? What religion? What color? What country? How about the People of Peace or Warriors of God, or rich folk or poor folk or…Help, Help, Help!
Save our world. It can be a wonderful place to exist. So, is Revelation’s destruction incorrect? Please, oh please Lords of our creation, we can do better. This world of ours is a great place!
Please…
Peace and Love and Understanding. And, oh yes…
Amen.