You’ve been waiting patiently. For that I thank you. Here is my response.
I don’t believe Mr. Lewis is a pimp. That is, I don’t believe he is trying to get rich by telling you to give him money and by selling you worthless sermons, trinkets, or prayer cloths. And as far as I can verify independently, I don’t see that he does any of the things one generally attributes to the subjects of this web site. Yes, he promotes tithing. And yes, he does say “turn to your neighbor and say [fill in the blank]. But those things do not a pimp make.
I have listened to several interviews and a couple of segments from his presentation. I’ve even looked at several of the PowerPoint slide presentations he uses. They were available for download (free) from his site (click here ). The fact that he gives away anything is a major argument against his pimping.
In at least a couple of his presentations he actually took a shot at the men and women we have identified as pimps and pimpettes. Of course this doesn’t automatically clear him of pimpdom since our boy Manning (here or here ) also attacks the pimps , while doing exactly what he rails against them for.
Yes, Mr. Lewis sells his DVDs. But I don’t really have a problem with that because, strictly speaking, he isn’t presenting the Gospel, he is presenting his reasons for being against the use of a Hip Hop style of music and persona in presenting the Gospel. In other words, he is presenting the results of his efforts to uncover various aspects of the lives of Hip Hoppers, the history of the music, the effects of the music, and other stuff that goes into his presentation. This does take work and if he gets paid for it, it’s only fair.
Churches do indeed pay him to speak to their congregation and anyone else who may be interested in listening. Again, I don’t see that this is a bad thing. There is the idea of the laborer being paid for his efforts. After all, it would be difficult for Lewis to feed, clothe, and house his family if he wasn’t compensated for what appears to be a full time effort.
According to one newspaper article Mr. Lewis gathers in $700,000 in DVD sales. But again, he is offering people information , not about how they can get rich - information that Mr. Lewis perceives to be beneficial to the buyers’ spiritual health. It costs money to buy the equipment and supplies to burn DVDs. It also takes personnel to man the equipment and to keep the business/ministry going. Volunteers can only go so far.
Basically, with respect to the activities, I don’t see Mr. Lewis as doing anything any different than such “conferences” as “Walk Through the Bible”, “Strike the Original Match” and other Christian self-help activities. No better, no worse.
My problem with Mr. Lewis is two-fold. First, he is often very loose with the facts with respect to those things with which he disagrees or disapproves. Second, he’s hard core Pentecostal, with all the excesses that go with Pentecostalism. And often, an unwillingness to look at the facts is one of the excesses.
Apparently, there is some disagreement about the meaning of Hip Hop. He maintains that the phrase means “booty shaking”. The problem, though, is he doesn’t even try to present information that may actually argue in the other direction. For instance, Wikipedia (not always the most reliable of sources) says:
it is believed that Cowboy created the term while teasing a friend who had just joined the US Army, by scat singing the words “hip/hop/hip/hop” in a way that mimicked the rhythmic cadence of marching soldiers (Click here to see the reference ) .
Which one is true? I don’t know. My only point is Mr. Lewis never presents the other information. His motive? I can’t say for certain. But it does seem likely that he wants to make as explosive and as strong a case as possible, leaving no room for doubt about the correctness of his position. Unfortunately, his approach takes the audience for a bunch of sheep who need to be spoon fed and, in essence, told what to think.
Mr. Lewis is not very careful with his facts. He tends to look at the items that support him and ignore the items that don’t. While it certainly isn’t his job to defend Hip Hop, if there are statements that contradict the things he says (e.g. hip hop means booty shaking), these items should be addressed. Doing so can only strengthen his argument. Ignoring them can only weaken his argument.
As I said, Mr. Lewis is very heavily Pentecostal. Ironically, he promotes many of the doctrines and beliefs the pimps use to swindle the sheeple. Specifically, he has no problem with New Testament type Apostles operating now. Along with this is the idea that divine revelation (like that in the Bible) is still coming forth from God.
Additionally, he is very much into experience. For instance, his entire tear against Hip Hop is apparently based on an experience in which God appeared in his bedroom one night. During that visit, God told him to start warning people about the evils of Hip Hop (it’s mentioned at the beginning and again buried fairly deeply in here ).
Overall, I cannot say the man is a pimp. He may be deceived doctrinally, but as I have said before, having bad doctrine is not the same as being a pimp. But of course, all pimps use bad doctrine.
He may indeed have good intentions. But good intentions don’t make your presentation accurate. And bad information hurts your cause more than getting caught with the town floozie.
I am one who does like the Truth Behind Hip Hop series due to the fact that many of our churches and “gospel” music seems to create a party atmosphere instead of a Christ-centered worship service or songs, but I agree with you 100% about his doctrine. In the first DVD, he quotes Benny Hinn in a positive light! Anyone with an ounce of discernment knows that Benny is the worst of the worst of the false teachers/prophets. What G. Craig really needs is to sit with someone who will teach him the pure unadulterated word of God and not this hyper-pentecostal stuff. I was raised COGIC and believed all of the “stuff” they did until I got into the word with a mature saint, so there is much hope for G. Craig in this aspect. I just pray that he would receive the correction.
Well it is about time Melvin, I was thinking you were not going to address this again, and was hoping you didn’t think we forgot. LOL Your response, it would be an understatement to say excellent. Good job!! I thought me and Mr. Woods were going to have to call you an Ecumenical joker like all the rest. You addressed all the issues and did your research and I think all Christians need to have this approach. OK Lewis is not pimp, I did not know you could get all that stuff from his site. Either way I still would not and will not endorse Lewis from a theological standpoint and would not point any baby Chrisitian in his direction. I think his pentecostalism. overlooking facts, current apostles, and speaking in tongues to be saved is dangerous to say the least and because he expouses WOF doctrine, I can’t get with him anymore. I like how he teaches holiness, it is needed. So I agree not a Pimp, but he is OFF. In Christ
Man homie the way you talking it seem like you was waiting and looking for somebody to say something about Mr. Lewis. Wheres the love in that brotha, I hope you praying for him and everbody on the site. But I dont see where you thing this brotha is off at? I mean he told you to look up EVERYTHING he says, in the Word and on the web (because somethings you just got to see to belive).
(MN: Places where I believe he is off:
1. The idea of New Testament Apostles
2. His crusade is motivated by God appearing to him as a light in his bedroom
3. His support of Prophecy as additional words from God
4. His willingness to pronounce a person a homosexual without objective evidence
5. His dismissal of anyone not adhering to a pentecostalism
6. A sloppy understanding of Dispensationalism
7. A willingness to make sweeping statements about those he disagrees with
8. An arrogance that says he will not respond to anyone who sends him an e-mail
9. A heavy appeal to emotion rather than the Word of God
10. A loose handling of facts and information (example: A pierced ear was used as a sign of one Israelite choosing to be a life long slave (servant) of another Israelite (Ex 21:6). It had nothing to do with demon worship)
I could go on, but these are some of the highlights of his wanderings. )
1. So you dont believe in New Testament apostles?
(MN: I don’t believe the office of Apostle (capital A) continued past those appointed by Jesus Christ. They are a part of the foundation of the Church. You only do a foundation once, in the beginning.)
2. You dont believe that someones crusade can start by a “Light” appearing to them? (In which the Apostel Paul ministry or “crusade” did).
(MN: I don’t believe that that which Lewis saw was God or any representation of God. He speaks (in these days) to us through His word, in our hearts. )
3. You dont believe that you can get a Word from God? ( I do all the time, he tells me many of things; a matter fact i talk to him this morning)
(MN: I have no idea what you mean by “get a word from God.” )
4. The only eveidence you need to know that is the way they act, talk, the people they hang around. I mean you dont have to catch them in the act to tell if they are a Sodomite. Thats why The Lord gave us the Spirit of Discernment.
(MN: They’re behavior says a lot, but it is not conclusive; especially if I am going to broadcast my view about them. To do so is nothing short of gossip and perhaps slander. I can say they behave in an effeminate manner, I can say they swish, I can say they shouldn’t wear that bright pink lipstick because it clashes with their dark skin. But I would almost have to catch them in the act, or have them tell me straight out that they are that way before I could make such a statment. And by the way, I don’t believe Gaydar is one of the gifts of the Spirit. )
Melvin wrote…….”And by the way, I don’t believe Gaydar is one of the gifts of the Spirit.”
ROFL!!! Man, I couldn’t catch my breath for ten minutes after reading that
2.(MN: I don’t believe that that which Lewis saw was God or any representation of God. He speaks (in these days) to us through His word, in our hearts. )
Man Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever, if he did it back then he will do it now, aint no diffrenece.
3. What do i mean get a word from God?
(okay the words that you are speaking when you are on a pulpit, or when you are giving the gospel to someone, is that not getting a Word from God, if not then that means you are speaking on your own behalf)
Justin,
Between the time of the last Old Testament Prophet and New Testament writers was about 400 years. In that time frame no prophecy was given until Christ and the Apostles. God purposely withheld prophecy. Why couldn’t He hold back prophecy now? 1. 2 Tim 3:16 “All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.” He does not need to manifest Himself in order to teach us. All scripture and prophecy was given by God, breathed out if you will by Him through His spokesmen. The greek term for prophecy (Strong’s G4396) dealt with the coming of the Kingdom, i.e. Christ and instruction, exhortation, etc. Rev 19:10 says the testimony of Jesus Christ is the Spirit of prophecy.” All prophecy had to deal with Christ and His kingdom. I say this because although God is the same, yesterday today and forever does not mean that everything that someone has had or gone through will happen to us. Because Paul (who was the last Apostle) had a special revelation it does not mean that God has to give each and every one of us that same thing. If that were the case then why give the Bible? Or, why doesn’t He make us all kings like David? Or have 1,000 wives like Solomon or die on a cross upside down like Peter? His ways are the same. He is still merciful and still judgmental. He is still kind and terrible. He is still Holy and Awesome. In that respect, He does not change. If His Word DOES NOT return to HIM void, then when He spoke through those men at those times, all that they were inspired to write is more than enough for His people because it came from Him.
Craig’s desire may have been to expose hip hop, but that doesn’t mean that God sat across the room teaching him what to do.
Apostle Murray is not an apostle (although he may be a “sent one”{but then aren’t we all as Christians?}) in the Paulinic sense.
Hope this wasn’t too much of an overload.
uh, melville, the bright pink lipstick and the swishing kinda says it all- no special discernment necessary.
Melvin, since you don’t believe you can get a word from God, Explain John 16:
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will GUIDE you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall HEAR, that shall he speak: and he will shew you THINGS TO COME
No one disagrees that you can “get a word” Al; however, when that word is extrabiblical then we stop. If that word by any means conflict with God has laid out in Scripture then we say no way. That is a spirit but not the Holy one bro!
Just making sure. We can agree on that one Mr Woods.
Meh typical fanatic i’ll call him an alarmist/divisive pimp. Going on and on about hip hop when therre are a lot more important things to talk about. Ooh Aaliyah was reading Harry Potter and starred in a horror movie. That’s why her plane crashed just like a Pentecostal supposes God knocked her out the air.
Huh? Did Lewis claim her plane crashed because she read Harry Potter and was in THE WORST vampire move of all time? (Yes I saw it.) I mean, even Blackula was better! I felt like they should have paid me for watching her movie, it was so terrible.
(Yea I know vamp flicks have totally evil associations and I should not view them. But I did.)
Her plane crashed because she overloaded it and the pilot was a dope head.
(MN: Besides, she was so cute. )
Well i’ll say he alluded that her descent into evil lead to her death. Which is biblical canon the wages of sin etc but in the context he used it. It seemed she got wacked for reading and being in the wrong things.
MJ, You and R. Kelly are in agreement.
danharr - It’s an abuse of scripture to claim the wages of sin are physical death, when we know the gift of God is ETERNAL life, Romans 6:23.
That’s what happens when people play games of legalism, they get fast and loose with the scriptures really quick and context is not considered during such abuse. Paul, the man who wrote the words as inspired by God was physically killed himself in a most brutal way (beheading). If Lewis claims the wages of sin are physical death, he’s just made Jesus and all the apostles sinners. Plenty of sinners have been here a long time.
(Ephesians 6:1-4 is a better choice when talking about actions for a possibly long earthly life, but all depends on what the Lord wills.)
Aaliyah probably suffered a death of another sort, the spiritual kind to a burning hell, that Lewis seems to have missed in that case. (Of course only God knows for certain and is the judge of her soul, not me.) Because Lewis appears to be focusing on physical rather than spiritual.
I wonder, and maybe you who watch many of his videos can tell me, but how often is the name of Jesus or some actual rightly divided scripture mentioned during his videos? I mean to me he says plenty about celebrities…
Gridiron - I was tempted to say the same. I also was tempted to say, Medina S. Pullings would have loved to have had her as an armor bearer
.
you see, this is why i call lewis a sensationalist. he ignores the obvious (aaliyah’s plane was over loaded) and attributes her death to the fact that she made a movie called queen of the damned and said in an interview, something to the affect of, she likes the dark side. that was very presumptuous of him to say this is why she died.
he justifies his statement by claiming that every time a horror movie is made, someone directly associated with the movie dies because the devil demands a blood sacrifice. where did he get this information? i wish i could ask him about this “research” but i can’t since he doesn’t allow himself to be questioned.
he also said he believes that God allowed biggie smalls to die because he was getting ready to come out with a 3/6 clothing line and He (God) didn’t want kids walking around wearing the mark of the beast on their clothes. really? well if this is indeed the case, then i wonder why God doesn’t stop the kids that are into heavy metal from doing it. they’ve been doing it for years in some degree or another. beside 3 sixes, they wear goat heads, demons, pentagrams and other representations of evil on their t-shirts or on tattoos. is God more concerned about the hip hoppers than the heavy metalers? again sensationalism.
i just want to know why craige lewis is HELL bent on exposing what SINNERS in the entertainment industry do, say, and sing about? what does he expect from unregenerated man? did aaliyah, biggie, tupac, jay-z, jill scott, erykah, krsone etc ever confess to being Spirit filled believers? i’m not asking, did they ever say they believed in god or thanked god on their albums, but did they ever profess to have repented of their sins, and were now living for Jesus Christ? if they didn’t, then why does he focus on them? maybe it’s because sensationalism sells. look at all the hysteria that surrounded the y2k hoopla. some churches made out like bandits selling survival books and telling people to stock pile food and water. (my former congregation sold books after every service).
i’m of the opinion that although craige may not be a pimp in the same way the tbn crowd are- he certainly has pimpish ways. i think he’s got game and his message is primarily effective within pentecostal and charismatic circles. these denominations for the most part are very accepting of esoteric experiences, demonology, and alot of emotionalism. they’re used to the shock and awe messages and believe that someone must be a man of gawd if they’re coming against some wordly mess. but he only gets over because so many professing Christians are lukewarm and lack a personal relationship w/ Jesus outside their congregations. if they kept their heads in the Bible instead of the tv, gossip columns, music videos and other distractions- they would learn to discern for themselves the things that they should avoid and the things that are pleasing to God.
finally, if parents (noun) would diligently parent (verb) their own children and preachers would teach the whole unadulterated counsel of God- then craige lewis would be out of business- i mean, uh, his “ministry” wouldn’t appear to be so necessary.
IC and others, G. Craige talks about Jesus all through his videos. He also uses scripture correctly all through his videos. He’s talking about celebrities about as much as we do on this site. He’s exposing the truth about what these people are doing by holding up what they do against the Word of God. I know that you are against his selling of his DVDs but if you are going to criticize what he is saying, wouldn’t it be fair to see for yourself to judge and not based on what others are telling you? It’s not enough to just read his site.
NONE OF US GETS IT ALL RIGHT! If we did, we wouldn’t need the Holy Spirit to lead us into all truth and we would no longer be in need of correction. We are ALL being perfected until He comes to get us (whether through death or His calling us up). I support Lewis not because I think everything he says is right, but because of the focus of his ministry - that is getting the devil out of the Church. I totally disagree with him saying that what’s going on in my world is because of what I spoke, because that removes the sovereignty of God’s interaction in my life. But I’m not going to throw out everything he says just because of that. I don’t follow Jakes, Dollar, and the crew because they are twisting the scriptures to milk people out of their money and they promote and support the very things that are leading people into the apostasy and are responsible for many, many who have already fallen into it. At least Lewis’ aim is to get people to purify their lives and the church so that people can be careful not to fall into the apostasy.
In his imperfections (as we all have) we should be glad that SOMEONE is speaking out about the mess (by the way, he talks about some of the same people that are talked about on this site and yours) that’s going on in efforts to let the people know the truth.
My goodness, we get somebody out there whose willing to tell the truth and not flinch at being hammered by all sides, and instead of praying for him where we believe he may be missing it, we criticize. Is there not enough bickering in the Church? That’s why I despise denominations! All of the confusion is because God is not the author of any of them. Yet we cling to being Baptist, COGIC, Pentecostal. How about we cling to the Word of God and judge the reasons behind what a person is doing and pray that the Lord would re-direct him where we think he is wrong. Should we throw out 1st and 2nd Peter because he was rebuked by Paul? Certainly not! He is not trying to milk the people and the moment he does, I’m going to be all over him.
As for the Aaliyah comment, would you also say that King Saul died because he killed himself, or did it have ANYTHING at all to do with his disobedience to the Lord? What about Left-Eye? Did her delving into the occult in any way contribute to her death?
What I remember him saying on the audio about Aaliyah was that she had done a video that depicted herself in the same condition she was found in when she died. Left-Eye as well spoke her death just days before she died in the very way that she died. She said that demons were chasing her (reference , The Last Days of Left- Eye Documentary) and said that on the Island she was on, whatever you fear seems to manifest. She said she feared going down the street and not being able to stop and hitting something. That’s exactly what happened to her. No, I’m not saying God did it, but when you looked at her lifestyle, I believe she’d still be here had she lived another way (she was there because of her occultic beliefs).
Why are we so quick to support these people who deny the very truth of God and criticize someone who’s trying to tell us that we need to clean out our lives? I’m sorry, I just don’t get it.
I asked about the DVDs because I wanted to know.
If Craige G. Lewis can’t provide enough free materials to make his position understood and what he has freely provided and promotes himself on YouTube has been found to have factual errors, that’s Mr. Lewis’ problem, not mine. If I’ve got to give him money to understand him, that’s a problem and not with me!
He’s a sensationalist, who has painted a style (Hip Hop) into a demon. And you know I’m not even into Hip Hop.
He provides many hours of material for free on his site. Given that (what I’ve reviewed there in text, audio and video) I’ve got issues with the man. He makes many just plain bad statements. He’s really extra-biblical and denounces all who don’t embrace his extra-biblical view. That’s a major problem. That’s how all manner of mess enters the church. I don’t think the DVDs will clear everything up. Unless on the DVDs he admits that these “visions” and “prophesies” pastors have must be in line with scripture. I just wanted to know more about their content. Never mind a word he says about Hip Hop, the man is like an open invitation for familiar and seducing spirits! HIS DOCTRINE IS THE REAL PROBLEM.
We pray for the entire body of Christ and we expose bad doctrine too. Praying for him does not mean we keep our mouths shut. This man has people coming out of Hip Hop mess into legalism and seducing spirits. Thinking they will be closer to God if they are babbling. Encouraging them to follow “visions” because the pastor said he had it and gets upset if someone says the particular “vision” is out of line with scripture. He even denounces people in HHH who say you must stay to scripture, I’ve detailed that in a previous comment in another thread.
Mr. Lewis makes it hard to reach him with criticism, but we know he’s probably reading here. Maybe it will help him. Our discussions help us in our walk and maybe it will help him too.
Regarding Aaliyah and Left Eye, like Mr. Lewis, you’re confusing spiritual matters with physical death. Hugh Hefner looks pretty healthy these days, Louis Farrakhan is still alive, Kim Jung Ill is still alive. If physical death is the measure, why are worse men still alive while those females are dead? Mr. Lewis misapplied scripture. (Based on what was said here, I’m not buying it.) Maybe he makes a lot of other errors on the DVDs, I’m not paying to find out. I’ll give money to some ministers, but not him. He is a minister who is too far into bad doctrine.
I believe many Christians drive into trees and die a physical death, but have eternal life. So Left Eye was not a Christian, drove into a tree and died. Maybe she talked about doing it. Somewhere in the world a Christian might drive into a tree and die today. Hugh Hefner is in his mansion because of his beliefs and physically still alive. Hefner’s odds for physical death today are lower than anyone (Christian or not) who is driving around in a 3rd world country. And especially lower than someone who overloads a plane and has a dope head for a pilot.
Mrs Mav…………THAT was an EXCELLENT post sister.
P.S. Craige Lewis is not promoting himself on Youtube.com. Most of the ones uploading his DVDs are students of some sort. Oh, yeah, some kid from the UK too. It would be good to read the disclaimer.
Jack, you are correct. My apologies to GCL for saying he was that person on YouTube.
However, what that person has posted has been scrutinized and found to have error.
And again, his doctrine is the real problem.
trayjay, right on!
Thank you Trayj, You have said exactly what he has said on his dvd’s.
Greetings Tray Jay,
Great job explaining G. Craige’s position.
GCL’s intentions are to point us toward God. Continue in Prayer for him!
What I have learned from G. Craige exposing the truth behind hip hop is that the Body of Christ should exercise discernment in the church and in our homes by not allowing (Baal) ungodly things to enter in that would cause the Body of Christ to stumble (e.g.dabble in sin or go back to what we used to do). An example would be bringing or mimicking stomps of Greek fraternities into the church service or Fusing the Mary Jane Girls song “Out all Night” beats in a Christian song to get the people all fired up only to take many us back (who know the song) to our worldly ways and remembering that the beats with or without lyrics talks about a woman inviting a man up to her room to be with her all night. That kind of stumbing Mess. The focus on praising God was lost, while the praising of sin was ushered in.
“Be Ye Holy for I am Holy” says our Heavenly Father God.
Blessings
Concerned Sunday School Teacher
Anybody ever find record of a “choir rehearsal” in the Bible?
No I’m not trying to be like Church of Christ folks and toss every instrument out the door, I’m just asking.
Correction on promoter Rick James– Mary Jane Girls song “All Night Long” (1983).
Blessings
Concerned Sunday School Teacher
Also forgot to mention that he does not respond to emails he recieves unless you are kissing his derrière. If you are challenging him to give you an answer Jude 1:3 he won’t respond. Love you all
Hello,
I have been checking your site for a while now. I appreciate that you have made this your ministry to speak out against the “theives and robbers” impersonating sheep. While Craige Lewis in not a pimp, I question his ability as a expositor of the word of God and therefore, question his ability to interpret correctly. He often plays “footloose and fancyfree” with the text in order to support his stand against HipHop. Check out his first video on the subject. He uses very few if any scriptures to support his arguement. Instead, he goes outside of the bible to use experience and creative sophistry. Let me know what you think.
to God be the glory.
Frank
(MN: I agree. As I said in the post, he is not particularly disciplined in his application of scripture or the uncovering of facts. He MAY be telling the truth about Hip Hop. But the errors, the bad doctrine, and the heavy use of experience drowns argument.
The interesting thing is that most young people don’t have the mental skills to really examine what he says and the methods he uses to draw the conclusions he does. I would be interested in seeing how many young people stay away from Hip Hop or especially Holy Hip Hop. I’d like to see the recidivist (second definition) rate for them. )
I’m one of them. So are MANY of my friends. He is doing more than most of you older folks are doing to steer us away from that type of mess.
Melvin, you’ve been alright with some of your topics. You are pretty weak on this one.
I’ll still visit your site. By the way, who is leading you on this one? Is it the Holy Spirit or is the spirit too Old Testament for you?
(MN: Jack, the topic is Mr. Lewis’ doctrine. Regardless of how helpful he has been, the issue remains. )
Jack, why steer the issue to “your friends”, “Melvin’s topics”, and make it (the discussion) appear to be an overall drubbing of G. Craige the man?
Frank put it very nicely : “While Craige Lewis in not a pimp, I question his ability as a expositor of the word of God and therefore, question his ability to interpret correctly.”
So if the expository is incorrect or a strong issue (which is the overall issue) then the interpretation is potentially faulty.
The interpretation is exactly what he is SELLING to you, and you don’t care because you LIKE him.
Aren’t these exact indications of how TD Jakes, Paula White, Noel Jones, Fred Price, Creflo Dolar, etc are able to use the word (or just their personality - because they have already drawn you in) however they desire?
Same (potential) trap…the people are drawn into personality, more than examining that which is actually presented before them.
That is why I state as well, that I dont believe that he is a “Pimp”, but yet the difference isn’t much and I would wonder how much it would actually take for that to fully occur because faulty exposition and a large following are stables for the ones who have embarked upon “Pimpdom”.
Isn’t the issue clearly about his conduct and WHAT HE SAYS?!? Those whom defend false teacher essentially use the same methods as they share that it is evident that they LIKE the person.
Why not counter with WHY his doctrine is biblically based and some who have commented are wrong? With the Bible??
That is how focus is shifted, by ducking, dodging, and diverting.
The topic was presented to you, you obviously did not like it, so what about the “biblically based” doctrine of G. Craige is on point?
Did you read my post? Did you read what I was replying to? Pay attention!
Melvin, I only responded to this: “I would be interested in seeing how many young people stay away from Hip Hop or especially Holy Hip Hop.”
Melvin, I only responded to this: “I would be interested in seeing how many young people stay away from Hip Hop or especially Holy Hip Hop.”
I’m one of them and so are 300 others in my church.
Candace, that’s fabulous but premature. Neither you nor I have any idea whether this abandonment of HH will last, or who might have already begun dipping their toes back into that stream.
Candace, the issue is NOT his stance on HH, it’s his methods and his extra-Biblical sources of revelation for doctrine. Once you begin going beyond Scripture, you’re setting yourself (and those who hear you) up for a fall.
There have been some genuine issues raised here on Craige’s lack of personal accountability, his slackness with Scripture, and the methods he uses. It’s not primarily about HH, but these other issues.
gary I know when the Holy Ghost speaks to my spirit, don’t need nobody to convince me to do anything that I would not want to do. I did it because of the conviction of the Holy Ghost, pure and simple, The others I cant speak for them. Let me say this also, my spiritual life has
grown because of the stance I did take that night.
You say fabulous but premature, I believe that the power of God will keep me just as his love and guidance keeps me when other temptations come my way. Do I fail at them yes, sometimes I do, but his mercy is why I’m still walking the straight and narrow.
Thank you for your thoughts.
Hi Candace!! That’s great dear……..it really is!! And I’m sure your commitment is pleasing to, and empowered by, the Lord.You seem very sincere.
What I was primarily addressing is that you cannot know how the 299 are doing, or whether this bears fruit that remains for everyone. I’m sure you will agree with that.
But more importantly than all that, the main thing I was hoping that you would consider is not the question of HH as it relates to G.Craige. That’s really a peripheral issue. I was hoping to get you to think about the manner in which he does what he does (using falsehoods, bad doctrine, and rejecting accountability ) and the aspects of his doctrine that run counter to Scripture.
A good work is a good work………but good works can be done even by Muslims or heretics. The bottom line isn’t good works…….it’s Scripture. And I’d hate for you to get hurt through some of the questionable aspects of G Craige’s ministry, that’s all.
Everything in life flows out of doctrine, and false doctrine is a corrupter. It’s great that God was able to reach you through GCL, but now the mature Christian will go beyond an experience and examine the doctrine. I just hope you don’t allow your experience to blind you to some of the disturbing issues that have been raised here.
God bless you Candace (as I see He already has), and I hope to see more of you around here!!
(MN: Who are you and what did you do with GaryV’s fingers? )
As I said before pure and simple, the Spirit of the Lord is my guide. I enjoyed the message that I heard, the Lord spoke to my heart, G.Craig, did not put a gun to my head.
He spoke the message plain and simple. I heard no false doctrine, I have looked up what the man has said about hip hop, and I found it to be right on key, plus I have family members that are apart of the culture and go to the temple of hip hop, yes its true, they have a temple. I was never forced into his doctrine. I read the word for myself, and I know His voice for myself. I appreciate your words, I really do!
I doubt if throwing away CD’s that were foul will bring any harm to me. I made up my mind this is my story and I’m sticking to it.
I’m free in Jesus, whom the son has set free is free indeed.
Thanks again Gary for caring about this youngster, I really do appreciate you taking the time to share with me. God bless you and your family.
GaryV is gracious with the sincere, and fierce with the willingly blind.
I appreciate that. I have read a lot of your postings kind Sir and I must say, I want to be like you in the Word of God when I grow up. (smiling at Garyv)
Uh. Gary Luuu (Love in Southern drawl) the kids.
((( )))……….that’s a hug for Candace.
As long as we’re not talking about children acting like “BeBe’s Kids”, or as many black folk say, “IGNANT” (slang for “Ignorant”)…..because I think at that point DEFAX will find GaryV for beating the kids down.
By the way, BroGary, random question: What’s the “V” stand for in your name? Does it symbolize something (i.e. “V” for virility, vivacious….or regarding the “Pit Bull” label others have given you, “violent”, lol)….or represents your last name?
And if it’s the latter, are you comfortable sharing?
Just wondering if it’d be possible because I’m researching something……but if not, cool Brah.
I doubt anything that you do concerning me is random.
Candace, I dare say that a Muslim could have convinced the 300 that HH was inconsistent with a Christian life……….does that good work render the Muslim immune to the scrutiny of his doctrine?? Why then should it for any of US??
I think just like with any other preacher of the word we must read for ourselves, with the info Lewis provides we must check it for ourselves and do our own research…now to tell yall the truth God used him to bring me back to Him!!! There are somethings he say or had said that’s doesn’t line up I did question the Benny Hinn thing and the Paul Crouch comment(nobody could jump up and be Paul Crouch) I pray for him just like i do the “pimps”. I can say with the info he provided about Black Greek Orgs. God used me to stop a brother from joining and in turn he help someone from joining as well! The basic info or the foundation of his message is all there on his website and it’s free! I pray that God will open his eyes to want He is saying! Melvin great article!
I aplogized for calling the brother a pimp (I have stated this before). There are many other things he teaches such as “speak those things that are not as though they were”, that demons can posses Christians (and that there are specific demons, such as smoking, lust, and lying demons) and many other off the wall wacky doctrines.
As Tyris stated I have sent him emails (kind ones) to ask him about his position on things. Oh I left out him calling brothers out as gay. That is sin in the 1st degree. No way should I run around calling people gay who I have no clue about, furthermore since he is of like status, he could attempt to clear it up.
I am just saying for those who elevate him and call him credible may really want to evaluate if that is based off of emotion or that this man is a person of sound teaching and life. So many come on here and attack the pimps, and rightfully so; however, they will in the same breath praise an individual who has been proven to teach and say things that do not line up with sound teaching.
(MN: I agree. He has all the doctrinal makings of a pimp. His foundation is subjective enough and his accountability is tenuous enough that he could drift in the direction of the pimps without a big push from anyone. At the moment, he seems sincere in his desire to get people away from Hip Hop. My trouble is that his means often seem somewhat questionable. And it’s his means (accuracy, objectiveness, depth of research) that determine the character of his message.
People may often complain about what I say, but I work very hard at not saying more than I can document, usually with the words from the subject’s own mouth or website. Lewis doesn’t appear to have this same standard. )
Mr. Woods:” There are many other things he teaches such as “speak those things that are not as though they were”, that demons can posses Christians (and that there are specific demons, such as smoking, lust, and lying demons) and many other off the wall wacky doctrines.”
Yeah, i’ve had some major issues when i was first introduced to his site. I agreed mostly with what he was doing, which caused me to overlook his errors, but I just couldn’t remain to do so.
I’m going to start by saying praise the lord,TOUCH NOT MY ANNOINTED, I believe we as intercessors for christ could put the jealousy aside and look through the flesh and see the christ in eachother not only could we compel the people to come in but we would be abled to keep them in the church.
(MN: Sorry - we don’t compel people to come into the church and we aren’t able to make them stay. )
kimberly - Go read the scriptures that use the words you placed in caps. I mean the 2 entire chapters. Learn who the “anointed” were, versus who the warning was to. Also, keep in mind that “touch” and “harm” meant efforts to literally murder.
Then read how the anointing is mentioned and works on the New Testament side of your Bible. You’ll notice a difference.
There is no guarantee of physical protection now that we are under the new covenant, your soul is what is now protected from harm, but your body is promised persecutions.
Even back when that scripture applied to physical harm, it had absolutely nothing to do with anyone talking about someone.
You’ve misapplied a scripture that pimps use as a defense system to avoid scrutiny. Don’t fall for it.
If you ask anyone here to clarify any statement they made with scriptural support for their claim, they will be more than happy to explain and help you understand.
Praise Christ;
Yo I am a 23 year old man, who was “addicted” to Hip Hop; but by veiwing this Mr. Lewis DVD’s everything became real to me, i basically seen what I was really in (by listening to hip hop). Not only that, but you got to look how people are getting delivered, and set free from it; I mean demons are even being cast out on the DVD’s. So the real question shoould be is “Are people being delivered”. I mean with all due respect to you Mr. Melvin; you was just on one of his Ex-cast with him and all that; I mean shouldnt you had of said this when yall was speaking on the subject regarding pimps, and preachers who are lost. Come on man, How you going to come with this right here though, Im curious?
(MN: When I appeared on the Ex-ministries podcast, I didn’t know much of anything about where Mr. Lewis stood on many things. As I spoke with him in the podcast, several things became apparent - his pentecostalism being one of them. However, I saw no reason to disagree with him there in the podcast.
I have been interviewed by several other folks. Almost all of them pentecostal/charismatic. Since the Lewis interview I have been careful to make sure the hosts knew where I stand and to comment on that stand sometime during the interview. )
I belive this message is Straight Truth, and I like that, cause it aint no sugar coting the Word or nothing like that, its real TALK. Thats what made me know it was real (real recgonize real). To be honest man; It dont matter who baptist or pentcostal; neither one is going to heaven, only Christans going to make there(people who real Christans, CHRIST LIKE). You know alot of people dont like Mr.Lewis or you because yall give Truth with no hesitation. So with me I just belive what this man is doing is God-inspired, and wether you are baptist or pentacostal, as long as you are Preaching the Word of GOD, preaching aganist sin, living for Christ, and speaking Truth, and also which is Important STAYING AWAY FROM SIN. YOU GOOD! And thats real. Much repect to you though Mr. Melvin; And May the Lord Jesus Christ rest upon your life. Also everything he says he tells you to go look it up for yourself i mean he cant be hiding that much if he tells you to look it up. I mean i found almost everything he was talking about.
(MN: It’s that part that you didn’t find that may represent the biggest problem. The devil, as they say, is in the details. )
well when i said everything i meant everyhting regarding hiphop and other preachers. For the things I did not find were the things that involved his personal experiences. In which you could not argue about, but the question is Why would you want to argue about it. I mean the only thing you can argue is, if it is true or not. But no one knows but him or God, but as I said the real question should be; are people being set free and delivered. From a personal experience I could tell you “YES”!
(MN: Here’s a hint: If a personal experience doesn’t line up with Scripture, it is not a Godly experience. It may have happened [he may really have seen a light in his bedroom], but it wasn’t God that he saw. He may say Apostle This or That is a man of God. But the Bible says otherwise.
You have to measure experience by Scripture, not the other way around. )
I have a question for you Justin. How about your wicked lifestyle was a direct result of your DEPRAVITY and not Hip Hop. Brother you guys are fools if you think Hip Hop is the problem. This kids and adults can go and crush all the CD’s they want. They are just treating a symptom and not a problem.
Is it like giving someone pain killer to help with an arrow in their back. A soon as the medicine wears off you are going to need more. Just take the arrow out his back. The same logic goes for hip hop. This wicked music isn’t make these kids or you wicked, your wickedness leads you to music that hates God.
The problem is Christ doesn’t have their (or yours - past tense) affections. Most are religious at best, but a relationship is foreign to them. So crush the CD’s and keep chasing demons out of people. The end result is going to be the same. Without a regenerated heart SIN is going to take it’s righful place and that is 1st place. It is the same as Christians marching on planned parenthood.
Planned Parenthood isn’t the problem with abortions, people who get abortions are the problem. I will say this again and I want to make it clear. Crush your CD’s denounce Hip Hop, and do whatever else you think is going to help with DEPRAVITY of these youth and then come back and holler at me in couple of years. Unless God has quickened their hearts and removed the blliders from their eyes that they may respond to the call of the Gospel message, they will still be jacked up, maybe religious and we have droves of examples of that in the church today.
Mr Woods……..THAT is a great post, and it cuts right to the core issue. Depravity.
Hi Mr Woods
I understand this is a touchy subject for all including me but lets us refrain from calling each other fools (Matt 5:22) lets us admonish one another in love.
For me it tarnished your rebuttal slightly but there was some great points you made.
Imo it comes down to this scripture 2Cor 6 17 but hey i still watch TV but i have benifited from cutting out securlar music, well thats just me. For the record i agree that Mr lewis has some Doctrinal errors. Nevertheless he did help me to develop a thirst for the truth thats why i began seeing errors in the pimps fallacy and sadly later his ministry, as well as my former church which i was recently told to leave. one more if it weren’t for him i would have never stumbled on to this great website (which helps me to grow)
Keep contending for the faith
Hey if fools offended anyone I apologize. I will clear up one thing with you though Servant. The verse you use has a different definition than in the context I used it. You may want to get a commentary to get better insight. But I will not excercise my liberty. I apologize and repent if you are offended brother.
If you go looking for dirt, you will find dirt.
Yeah we found it with G Criag! LOL
and in hop hop long time ago, he is just pulling the covers off of the eyes of the blind. lol
I had a personal experience with “holy hip hop”.
I went to church for the youth service in the evening and saw a disco ball hanging from the ceiling, a young man acting like he was in the club talking about how he “be hanging wit Jesus like WHAT”, and a bunch of teenage girls rushing the “altar” screaming out “ain’t no party like a holy ghost party ‘cuz a holy ghost party don’t….stop!”
I didn’t need G Craige to tell me anything about the lack of Christ in Holy Hip Hop, its plain as day to see. I respect his work in that he is taking a stand that is hard to make with today’s “seeker” environment and folks trying to bring the world into the Church to get sinners to come. Yet, his arrogance is blinding. No disrespect intended to Mr. Lewis, but he comes off as if he believes that he is beyond reproach.
I understand why so many holy hip hoppers are “dissin’” him. The name calling I viewed on his site and on sites that support him was uncalled for. Tonex is a little weird, but calling the man a transexual was below the belt and not at all Christ-like.
And while Melvin doesn’t think he is a pimp, I think he is very close to being one. Where do you think he is going to point all of those newly delivered Holy Hip Hoppers to? Right into some church that is going to pimp them - from the frying pan to the fire.
(MN: So you view him more as a pimp’s agent than a pimp at the moment. Interesting. Let’s hope he never gets the nudge to move him into pimpdom. )
A Holy Ghost party doesn’t stop! Can I get a What What? LOL
Danny your argument is wack bro. That is like saying don’t go to church because we have false teachers. Once again I am not going to try to defend Holy Hip Hop, but your once experience statement is like the white man who got robbed by the black guy and now he hates all blacks.
Sis! Bruh, its sis!
I wasn’t making an argument against holy hip hop but rather stating that I didn’t need Mr Lewis to point out what I already felt was wrong with it.
If you are looking for someone to argue with, you are wasting your time with me. Sorry.
exactly! I see why Craig Lewis doesn’t allow anyone to make comments/opinions on his website. if we are not careful, we’ll become so argumentive that we begin to sound like fools who aimlessly try to get a point across just like some of the folks here. So sad.
(MN: IF that ever happens, it’s my fault, not y’all’s. I am the benevolent dictator. And as Peter Parker’s uncle said “With great power comes great responsibility.” I try to keep arguments from going on forever. At the same time, I think we learn a lot [I know I do] when issues are discussed “ad nauseum”. But I must admit, it is difficult sometimes to see where to cut a discussion. It used to be pretty easy - because there was no discussion. )
Maureen, that sounds nice and all…………except that ministers are accountable to the Body of Christ. How can someone be accountable when they refuse to even SPEAK to the unwashed masses they condescend to grace with their great illuminations??
G. Craige, by isolating himself and elevating himself contrary to the Word, is in disobedience to that Word.
And I also needed to add. My use of the word “experience” should have been in quotes as it was tongue in cheek since Mr. Lewis bases his ministry to the hip hoppers on his “experience” with the Lord telling him about the evils of holy hip hop.
Just needed to clarify.
If anyone lives in the Tidewater area of Virginia, and wants to listen to some good ol’ gospel music, then check me out on 1600 AM, on the weekends, between 12 and 5 pm-especially on Saturday…
I go by the name of Brother Dre!
Dr Dre! What in the world?
you see!
Can comebody tell me what exactly IS “Gospel Music”? And if Hip Hop music breeds the things G Craig says they do, then what does “gospel music breed”?
Melvin, Melvin, Melvin, what a great article. Thank you our church thanks you for the insight. We are planning on having Mr. Lewis to come to our ministry in a few months. We are going to view your comments and be sensitive to this issue in bringing Mr. Lewis to our city.
I have to admit that Mr. Lewis message is compelling but there are some things that he says that are questionable. I was rasied in Pentecostalism (COGIC).
I do have a question I have heard Mr. Lewis allude to pastors who practice homosexuality. But I have never heard him say whom was he speaking about.SO has anyone heard him specifically say who? I am concerned becasue I agree with your statement Melvin that we must be careful when we make comments about others. However, thank you again for your insightful article
Hey Mel,
Great article; yet i am in between I’ve researched Hip Hop culture being part of it and an avid listener extensively and what he(Mr. Lewis) says is as accurate as you are going to come when it comes down to it ,However you are right about the doctrinal side of things it is very extensive……and seems to close out the other side…..But how can we defend the faith from this demonic entity without resources such as this and the Exministries.com?
How about teaching our kids scripture. By taking them through Catechisms instead of letting them watch television or being latch key kids because we are chasing the American Dream. How about stop sending our kids to youth ministries and discipling and training them ourselves. How about now duping in our kids into believing they are saved just because they go to church, and letting them know from the first breath they took they were enemies of God and they need his grace and grandma’s faith ain’t going to do it. How about giving them a book on the heavy theological books instead of running them to basketball, soccer, and football practice. How about putting more emphasis on their spiritual development and not so much on their secular education. Finally how about holding parents accountable and not Hip Hop, for the lack of reverence they have for the things of God. I think that could be a start. We don’t need G Craig, we need to train our children in, theology, doctrine, and personal sanctification!
(MN: Amen. Of course you realize that this means the parents are going to have to pray, study and make time for their children. What’s the likelihood of that happening? )
Great points Mr Woods! I was thinking about my relationship (spiritually speaking) with my 13 year old daughter last night. I was thinking about how I could minister to her without beating her over the head w/scripture. One idea I had was to gather my wife & 2 daughters together & choose scriptures of a passage & commit to reading it/them daily & discussing them @ the end of the week or weekend. Any thoughts or suggestions?
Here you are Thinking. My son is 14 months and I am going to start reading this to him in the next month or so. There are other good sites also
http://www.founders.org/fpress/tag-series.html
Wow! Thanks Mr Woods & GaryV!! For all the critics of this site, good things are passed along! My daughters are 4 & 13 and these books seem to be very appropriate.
Mr Woods is right on the money Thinking. Why not take the Westminster Shorter Catechism, adapt the language and the points, and discuss those doctrinal points with your daughter??
You can find it on the web easily, the work of collating is already done for you, and it brings up the essential doctrinal issues along with the Scripture references to boot.
I find it best to start with the ten commandments. Show her the Law and the fact that we are enemies of God from birth. Help her to learn why God started with the Law and then as you see her understand, move her into knowing why Christ came to deliver humanity- because we could never do it ourselves!
Another tip on interceding for your children.. I appropriate on a regular basis, in behalf of my 17 year old daughter (whom I raise on my own) Isaiah 54:13-14. I also use Psalm 127 which states the fact that if “We” establish our lives, families, jobs etc.. in the Lord’s right way of doing things, it will not be in vain (useless labor). I agree with many of the posts, especially Mr Woods when it comes to blaming the world for how our children turn out. The responsibility is given to us as parents!! All through the Bible we see God expounding Wisdom on rearing children. Proverbs 23:24 and following show us the role expected of a father with his son. We are told to “Train a child in the way which is right(the way the Bible teaches”….. I wasn’t raised up in the admonition of the Lord, and it has been a lot of work to learn it later in life; however I have sacrificed much to show my daughter “by example” and not just by cheap words, how to go about surviving spiritually in this fallen world. I hope these scriptures help you as they have me in my quest to raise a godly daughter.
God Bless You All!!
Buckstah
Funny Woods, lol, hey if we look hard enough at you we’ll find some dirt.
Plenty in the past. You have nothing now (I keep it inside, you see, anger, lust, hate, envy, you know the hidden stuff) other than that I am clean as a whistle and as sharp as tack!
mr.woods I wish more people would try this instead of droping them of to sunday school,youth
ministries,our job as parents is to teach our kids not the youth ministries,sunday school teacher.Most of us grew up being dup by our parents making us go to church thinking that we were christian’s because we went to the building? because they didn’t no any better,just as they don’t no any better now.Joshua taught his, and in Ephesians,6:4 Paul said it that’s enough for me.Before there was a G.Craig we had the scripture’s, were just lazy and want somebody else to raise our kids from scripture.
Man, if this isn’t confirmation I don;t know what is. Someone asked me yesterday what I thought of our church’s latest youth event(I won’t call the name of the weekly Tuesday night event) and I had to be honest. I said I thought the parents should be reaching the kids and not youth rallies and events. Now I will say that if the kids are TRULY getting saved, then well and good, but I have to question some of them though. Now that our church’s youth event is big(popular) in the city, I hear another large church in the city wants to latch on. Hmm
I agree with the ultimate verdict that he has not been found to be a pimp. Although I also find he’s got issues in his doctrine and he plays fast and loose with the facts.
However, I can’t say there is a scriptural foundation for FEE BASED ministry. Jesus told his disciples they would be “worthy” of their food, Matthew 10:9-10, but he never tells them to charge a fee. People were allowed to give freely as they saw fit of their own heart. Jesus did it and told his followers to do the same. This is the example the apostles continued. So I say that FEE BASED ministry of all kinds is an unbiblical practice, that has become so common that we generally accept it.
Keep in mind, I know the cost of making and selling CDs and books. I’ve made and sold non-ministry related (not at all church related) materials in the past via the Internet. I’m not saying nobody deserves money for an effort, I’m just saying when it is done with the purpose of advancing the name of the Lord, we should strive to do it as Jesus and the apostles, as in no set fee, period.
As I was saying today in the comments of this thread on my blog, the copyright restrictions associated with fee based ministry do more to inhibit than advance ministry (or even equipping) , because people can’t even share with their friends legally.
I just want to say to all of you here please provide the same accountability and reason of scripture with dealing with people you like versus those you don’t. I am hesistant to use the word Hyprocrite, but it is at the tip of my tongue. If you don’t have a problem with his doctrine and you have a problem with some of the pimps doctrine as annotated on this site something is seriously wrong. I believe he is a cancer and not a blessing to the Body of Christ. That is only my opinion, because of his extreme Pentecostal views. I beleive he lives people in more bondage to legalism than he does the liberty we have in Christ Jesus. Furthermore he shifts the blame of personal sanctification to music versus holding the believer (rather lip professing or true) responsible. While people are jumping up and down excited about kids giving up music they don’t like Satan is jumping up and down because a new sucker has been duped in believing works can make them right with God. Eph 2:8-9 my friends is the only key, not earrings, music, or movies for that matter. When Christ has your heart he will take the taste for things he hates away. This is all in love, but don’t get impressed by the small success of music being thrown away, ensure that they are going on to Christ likeness in every area, rather that is disciple making or the basics of biblical truth.
Mr. Woods, did you reply to my comment because you feel I am being a hypocrite regarding Mr. Lewis? I’ve noted that I’ve got problems with his doctrine.
I think people are OVERLY IMPRESSED with his work regarding Hip Hop. Although not posted, I did send information about how some of Mr. Lewis’ findings are being debunked. Which leaves those who are lost seeing him as a joke in some cases. And with or without those DVDs, the material in Hip Hop has always been cited as some pretty bad stuff. I don’t think Mr. Lewis brings anything new to the table, except for those who didn’t hear it before, but he also brings statements not rooted in fact, which is a problem.
And about the peddling, while the initial cost for a lot of pressed DVDs with cases is substantial, it does get to a point where it’s nothing but profit and Mr. Lewis is WELL BEYOND that point. (And don’t fool yourselves, he’s well beyond feeding his family too!) But still, he’ll charge a fee for all his materials, even the old stuff. On top of the speaking fees.
Meanwhile, Christians like brother George W. Greene, post his videos Google at no cost and simply accepts anything that anyone might desire to give him if they feel so led. And his are much more deeply rooted in scripture. That’s what you call ministry the way the Lord instructed! That is how you equip the saints and do it like a saint.
No I wasn’t referring to you sir.
mr. woods, mr. woods! i agree w/ so much that you said in your post. they are my sentiments exactly. i’ve said before that i’m no fan of craige lewis primarily because of his funky attitude and unapproachable, haughty demeanor. it is very difficult for me to hear anyone when their personality is overbearing. i do earnestly pray that someone would be able to reach him and tell him the truth about himself. hip hop isn’t the blame for the condition that the Church in america is in- apathy is.
blessings & peace 2 u
Mav, I think you are just jealous because Craige is more “anointed” than you.
;0)
gridikins, moi? jealous of craige? surely you jest! lol. anointed, shmointed. i’m just upset that i shelled out my greenbacks for his dvd series. i felt like the person who opened up a can and rubber snakes popped out.
maybe i can recoup some of my money by peddling them off on ebay.( i’ll check with i.c. first. lol ) or perhaps if you give me your address, i’ll send them to you for a wedding gift. how ’bout that?
well, we do need some cupholders.
LOL gridikins, that’s funny but i just remembered i have a lopsided bookshelf and i need something to prop it up- the tapes will come in handy for that. btw, you might wanna get you some nice coasters to hold them cups.
how foolish of you guys to aimlessly go back and forth likel ittle children. Die to the carnality. no need to display the work of your flesh
Maureen, let me have a chance to assess your super spirituality via the Scriptures a spiritual giant like yourself must use to prove her assertions.
OOPS………you don’t use Scriptures, just your carnal opinion. I’m crushed.
So,So,So true my Brother!!!! I can say from my own experience that when I received salvation, I was delivered from drugs, booze and all of the other baggage that goes along with it, period!! Since then I have had my battles with my flesh as all of us do, but I see what you and others are saying; that when these kids think they are “right” with Christ because of some spiritual phenomenon that they think they experienced, without the signs following (true repentance, changed heart, chastisement for getting out of line etc….) then it was simply a temporal “experience”. I have only been a believer for 9 years, but have seen many come and go to and from the Gospel, so I am leary of every so-called “move of the Spirit” that I see. It reminds me of Acts 5:38-39, which is also a scripture that I appropriate on a daily basis to test whether or not if something is of the Lord .. Works like a charm, as all of God’s promises do!! I have seen tattoo shops, bars, Mormon churches and other groups of God’s enemies be removed from my hometown from simply inviting God into the situation and ask Him to remove these people who are operating out of His will. You can apply this scripture to any leader of our country, who you or your children should marry etc…. I realize that there are many differing opinions on these blogs, but I do enjoy hearing everyones points of view on doctrinal issues. This is how we learn folks!! Everyone be Blessed..
Buckstah
IC,
As much as I view John MacArthur as being biblically sound, when I went to his website I was disappointed w/all of the selling or promoting that is there. He has links to different products also on the site. I sent him an email politely asking his thoughts on the matter & I received a generic email that basically said due to the high volume of emails, etc. he may not be able to respond to me. This was about a week ago.
The peddling is at epidemic proportions.
The difference though between MacArthur and Lewis, is that with MacArthur Jesus is preached and with Lewis you’re tossed into legalism and extra-biblical nonsense that invites seducing spirits. With Lewis, you could get free from one issue and fall into several others.
My statements about peddling apply to all who do it, MacArthur included. How can someone share the truth MacArthur provides without a pocket full of cash to buy enough copies of his materials to share with all the people they wish to tell? At the very least, after they make some money off these items, they could post them on various internet sites that allow data uploads and give it away for free.
I agree. I listened to his sermon on knowing the Will of God for your life & he had about 6-7 key points. The last one was after you’ve fulfilled the others (being spirit filled, sanctified, suffering, giving thanks in everything, etc), “do what you want!” I guess that falls into that category!
If you are looking for freebies, go to SermonAudio.com. Great sermons, by the way. Check out Paul Washer.
Now, Pastor Paul is nothing nice! He takes the Word and rightly divides it, IMHO. If his church was here in TX I’d be there already:)
Yea I heard about SermonAudio.com before. I think someone was recommending something by Pastor Paul.
But they want my e-mail and some other information. Do they use that in any way?
(MN: One of the things they do is send you updates and announcements. I love the site. I get a lot of my Reformed stuff from there - Baptist and Presbyterian. )
However there are a wealth of free resources at http://www.gracetoyou.org. There a list of free bible studies that are arranged alphabetically. You can download them at your leisure. I use them for my personal studies at time.
He is also featured on http://www.biblebb.com/ which has almost all his messages typed up as well as from other reformed preachers of old.
By the way, you can attend any of his Live DVD tapings and the such for free. You would know Melvin….Oh yeah, you are no longer on his PodCast. I think he discerned you before you did him. Hmmm?
(MN: You’re making no sense whatsoever. )
Someone mentioned that,”maybe he will change if he gets under a good teacher” Based off of Craige’s personality(I have met and talked with him in person) he is not teachable. People who hear directly from God aside from scripture usually do not see the need to sit under anyone if they can hear directly from God in an audible voice. But I will be in prayer for him. Aside from that I laugh at the hypocrisy I see on this blog. If you read Melvin’s article again, it is obvious that this dude if OFF. But we still want to say he is OK. Deb-what are you saying here? When you look for TRUTH you find it not “dirt” Love you sister in Christ.
(MN: I’m sorry - apparently I didn’t write strongly enough. Let me rephrase the conclusion. Run away from G. Craige as fast as possible and stay as far from him as possible. His extrabiblical views are going to eventually be very destructive to the Body. Pentecostalism (a result of the “great” movement at Azusa Street) has, in my opinion, done more to promote the pimps and pimpettes than any other doctrinal abberation within the Church. It has done more to make the average believer vulnerable to the pimps on a broader scale, than any other doctrinal view. Their departure from the ABSOLUTE authority of Scripture was simply a loaded gun waiting to be used. What we see now is the maturation of the fruit that has been growing since Azusa Street. Yes, there are conservative Pentecostals. But I suspect they are the exception. And even the conservative ones are subject to being launched into really bad doctrine with the appearance of a powerful personality as its leader. By definition, they do not have the Bible as the final authority. After all, when the prophet or the Apostle speak, that’s the same as hearing God speak, just like the Bible. )
MJ, This language is stronger…but yet more clear for me. I understand this, and yes his views lend more for experience oriented views of God than anything that may be of Biblical truth.
Hip Hop has no place in the church. I agree. I also believe that many “old foggies” are on him for the wrong reason as well. Using this as armor to chastize the children, and young adults when their own control methods of doing it “the old way” do not work.
I heard him, then met him….and (as someone else correctly stated) his “arrogance is blinding”. Very strong in his views to the extent, if you questioned him or his ministry (personally) then you may be in for an argument (that is how strong and dominating he appeared). His company appeared the same way.
As you hear in his interviews, though passionate, some of the extra curricular things (name calling, jiving about others Biblical interpretaion) are waaay too much.
Many things he says are true, but the “extras” slide it to “gossip” as the claims, and flamboyance with which he speaks have not been accounted for. Public sin (name calling, and public shots at others) in the name of Christ is dealt with in a public circle. I believe he should really account for those things he has erred in, but instead his is above what the Bible commands us to do in letting “our converstaion be with grace, seasoned with salt so you may know how ye ought to answer every man…” (Col 4:6)
Paul accosted Peter publicly when Peter was standoffish (vs. the Gentile believers) when zealous Jews came around.
So I believe (since his ministry is public) he should be accounted for the same way. Though many (like myself) do not like, nor care for Tonex’s music, or Cross movement….the homosexual shots, Biblical statements, and arrogance behind it was rough to listen to.
The message about renouncing the culture of Hip-Hop overall is good, but to a sincere seeker whom may have honest questions, he is as unreachable as the “pimps” themselves. I say stay away. He will not make himself available.
Now as sensistive as some are to the ministries in which they have been seduced for sometime, the prompts for giving on his website and the pod-cast are interesting. Ripe pickings. Many pages have links to giving, addresses, and the pod-cast has a pay-pal account in which one may give.
I believe it is closer to what would be cosidered “Pimpdom” than many think.
Personally I believe he is treading on thin ice (overbearing personality) and his attitude demonstrates that he is above reproach….and he cannot be reached for anything other than being contacted for a speaking engagement.
Even at this point I would wonder if indeed that he would be available or would one be speaking to a channel of people, and not him himself.
Just my thoughts.
Grid, i agree with everything you said 100%. G. Craig needs to check himself.
I meant what I said, when you hold the magnifying glass up to anybody you will find something wrong.
We all have flaws Tyris!!!!
I will not run from truth, I like what the man has shared with the body of Christ about this ungodly music. As I have said before, I felt the same way about this stuff before I ever heard of a Craig Lewis.
Just confirmation. Like I said, if you look hard enough at everybody you will find dirt.
I stand by what I say, you and nobody else has to agree. Opinions, everybody is entitled to them.
Why should we run from Craig, shouldnt we be running from hip hop?
(MN: We seem to be pretty much divided on the issue of Hip Hop. And I don’t expect to come to any resolution on that division. However, there are Biblical issues that we do agree on. My intent has been to look at his behavior and doctrine and compare them to Scripture.
I say we should run from Mr. Lewis because he is really off doctrinally. That says stay away from him. Lewis and Hip Hop are actually two different issues. )
hey you have your opinion and I have mine. As the brother said earlier, we can agree to disagree in love, cause at the end of the day, all that matters is Jesus and him being glorified.
Like all the other pimps, if Craig is not glorigying God, he will get dealt with too. The word does say, Judgement begins at the house of God. Only time well tell.
You all have a wonderful summer I will be going on a months vacation.
I hope you all stay safe, enjoy your families and most of all stay in His love and care.
see ya in a few months.
The problem is Jesus isn’t glorified when people are crippled by legalism Deb. Once we put extras on people that are not explicit in scripture we cross the line and G Craig and his crew have done it. This is not the Gospel Jesus nor his Apostles taught. So you can say whatever about your opinion but we will tell you as others, your opinion is subject to the Word of God and it can never take prescedence. I am appaled how so many will easily give a get out of hersey free card without properly evaluating the critique Melvin has provided of his destructive doctrine. I agree with Gridiron, I don’t listen to that wack Old Timers Gospel stuff, like Gridiron I love the Holy Hip Hop (that is what I am talking about Grid) but seriously I think it is dangerous to promote this man in any form or fashion.
Deb, Deb, Deb, (No pun intended) But those statements were mere distractions and deflections.
Then head to “vacation” without anything substantial. For a month, then a few months…
The Word (not opinions) is the bottom line. May we examine it according to the given revelation of God’s Word.
Deb,
I think your missing the point. Yes we all have flaws but hopefully many of us realize that. In other words there are many things in my life that I need to deal with but I do not allow them to manifest in front of people. It was alluded to in an earlier post about anger, lust, etc, etc. Mr. Lewis does not show any restraint and allows his unbiblical teachings to manifest. Its not the flaws but the recognition of our flaws. Mr. Lewis does not recognize his errors.
Kyle
It seems to have good intentions.
Some time back a South African Zulu posted a comment that G. craige misrepresented some facts about the history and culture of the amaZulu. Well, G. Craige plans to go to South Africa in December so that may be first time he’s held accountable.
Yea right
…
Don’t count on him doing much more than traveling around. Doing speaking engagements, collecting money and flying home with some more material for his next DVD sale.
As mentioned before i happen to like Craig, but one of the major red flags that went up for me was when he mentioned that he produces for his Christian rap group at his church. That just appears extremely hypocritical given the fact that the nucleus of hiphop is rap music. The clothing, weed smoking, drug selling,…etc are only a by-product of the music. So, i wonder what is his motivation behind what he is doing?
Wrong again truthofgod, the weed smoking, drug selling, and any other Sin is a by-product of people being enemies of God. Why don’t yall get this. Look at Donald Lawrence, Shirley Ceaser, Paul Morton, and the rest of the Charimatic Chaos Crew and see what the fruit of their music is producing. Heretics is what is being produced. People that come to God for what he can offer them. Then again we have the good old Mississippi Mass who did nothing but make cliches equivalent to scripture. Melvin if given the opportunity I want to post a song by one of these idiot Christian Rappers to show the content of their lyrics. Maybe you can grant me such grace. Then let people critique the lyrics. Anyway truthofgod, Sin is the issue not music.
Mr. Woods you are correct. Sin is truely the source of all vices (weed smoking, drunkeness…etc). But my point the things that i listed is closely identified with the culture of hiphop. I used to go to underground hiphop shows and let me reassure you, the music along with the smoking, drinking, cussing..etc goes hand and hand. Ultimately, the culture is about rebellion, who’s root (as you put it) is sin.
You know TruthofGod I believe you mean no harm. But tell me something. What about R&B, Blues, Motown (if that is a genre), Rock&Roll, Metal, Grunge, Neo Soul, and other genres. They all promote things that hate God. Such as drunkendness, sexual immorality, and weed smoking. I think Hip Hop gets the biggest blow (though I am not defending it) I just think across the board all types of music promote this and it is ALL sinful.
Mr. Woods we are talking right now about hiphop not Jazz, R&B, Blues..etc. I agree that if something is against God, then its against God period! I never made a point against that issue, so now i’m not sure what your point is.
And to further reinerate. All of the items that is associated with hiphop culture is associated with just about any other genre of music. But again, right now we are speaking about hiphop.
(MN: His point is that if you are going to use a broad brush to make Hip Hop inherently evil, you should, in order to be consistent, do the same with Frank Sinatra, Tony Bennet, and Boy George, to name a few. )
Don’t forget Barry Manilow
Mel, i do agree with him that sin is really the issue. I believe i mis-spoke in my original statement. I’m was just coming from the mindset that I think it sends the wrong message when we (as Christians) identify our selves to a particular culture, whether it be a jazz, rock, hiphop..etc. Our goal should be to identify our selves with Christ and not the culture. i.e. be in the world, but not of it. Thats all i’m saying.
Woah Shirley Ceasar is bad?! Could you present some back up to that one. I understand that some of those “traditional” songs can lack biblical standing is that what your referring too?
(MN: That is it primarily. An awful lot of them are emotion based rather than Bible based. Add to that the fact that she is now a pastor. )
The woman has become an icon on the gospel celebrity scene. Someone we and our own mothers love. But we’ve got to be honest here. There is PLENTY WRONG with Shirley Caesar.
- Yes she’s got songs that lack biblical foundation.
.) If I can repeat myself, she is part of what I’m trying to warn everyone about in this post.
- Yes she’s now assuming a role (pastor) that is for men and she knew better back in the day.
But there is one other thing really bad about her. She’s in tight with pimps. Go to her web site and you’ll see that Jamal-Harrison Bryant is doing her next big conference and it’s not the first time they’ve done things together. (Notice the others that were also part of that “overflow anointing”
We’ve all got love for Shirley Caesar. We all pray she corrects these issues, but we can’t avoid noting her with the others.
What? You mean he pretty much damns Hip Hop to hell and he’s got a “rap” (which is Hip Hop) group he produces for himself?
IC, actually here is a letter in which he supports Christian Rap but not the culture of hip hop or Gospel hip hop.
http://www.exministries.com/parents.html
He’s trying to part hairs. That’s like saying there is a difference between Urban Street Wear and Hip Hop clothing.
Hip Hop does have its own cultural facets, but the style of music is a core element. Whether or not you take that musical style and call it “rap” or even “polka” it’s still Hip Hop and everyone into Hip Hop knows it.
Rap is actually the term for commercialized Hip Hop music.
Plus I’m sure Lewis wants those kids he supports to sell many units of their material, just like him
.
And the fallout begins……
I may be wrong, but seems that the many “doctrinal” issues people have with him (and to be sure, there are plenty) may not be based so much in Biblical TRUTH as they are in denominational views/interpretation.
(MN: You are correct. But how else do you arrive at Biblical TRUTH without interpreting? We each consider our INTERPRETATION to be the personification of Biblical truth, that’s why you are to work so hard at interpreting. Uh, you do believe that your beliefs are correct and those that disagree with your beliefs are wrong, don’t you? Otherwise, you are staying with something you believe to be wrong. What kind of sense does that make? )
Most accusations seem based in a Conservative/Reformed Theological Perspective, as if it’s the ONLY correct viewpoint (i.e. not believing in dreams/visions, charismatic gifts, etc), whereas Charismatic/WOF ones (like Craig’s) are AUTOMATICALLY invalid…….
(MN: Yes. I am reformed/conservative. I think this is valid. To the degree that WoF/Charismatic disagree with this view, I believe them to be invalid. After all, both views can’t be simultaneously true. Either one is true and the other is false (where they differ), or both are false and something else is true. Are WoF people wrong about everything? Certianly not. Are they wrong about the essentials? Yes.
I have made no accusations against Lewis with respect to Pentecostalism. He promotes it quite openly and very agressively. I believe, based on my best understanding of Scripture, that a pentecostal view of God and the Bible is inconsistent with orthodox theology. Do I discount everything a pentecostal says? No. But I can’t see much reason for using one for spiritual resources since I will have to spend a lot of time picking through the inevitable bones. I would not recommend him as a resource for the very same reason. In fact, now that I think about it, I will likely remove his link from the blogroll. No hard feelings. It just makes sense. )
Nonetheless, many in the Reformed/Conservative camp off base and yet praised here nonetheless (Consider your boy “, John MacArthur”, for example…… http://www.atruechurch.info/home.html , http://www.atruechurch.info/macarthur.html )
JMO……….
(MN: I’m not sure what your point is with the links. The owner of the site things J. MacArthur is presenting a false Gospel - likely because he promotes eternal security. But what’s your point? How is this related to my statements about Lewis? )
Deb if was a girl I would fight with that ridiculous series of statements. you should be ashamed of yourself. I thought more of you sister. LOL. Who cares what you or I think on this issue. All that matters is what the Scriptures say or what God has said concerning the matter. Based off of the authority of His Word Craige is OFF. You can like him if you want, I like him too. But doctrinally he is wrong. So next time Melvin’s brings the heat on the next hit list pimp, I don’t want to hear you say a peep!!! Have a safe trip deb and I still love you!!
To piggyback on the comments on denomination and doctrine I would like to pose these questions to the reformed/conservatives.
1. What scripture and verse says that tongues no longer in operation
2. What scripture and verse says that God cannot speak directly to a Christian
3. What scripture and verse says that we are no longer to cast out demons
4. What scripture and verse says that prophecy is no longer in operation
I consider myself a conservative/fundamentalist Christian (or at least striving for that direction) but can not make the stretch of saying I am in the “reformed” camp because I have not seen anyone show me in scripture how to support some of the reformed Church views. It almost seems like these views are more based on tradition than scripture. I will admit that I have seen a lot of speaking in tongue and don’t believe any of what I have seen has been real but my “experience” does not define truth, the Bible does. If we are going to call all Pentecostal people out for there doctrine then scripture needs to be provided to support it. I really don’t know the answer on these questions and would like someone of knowledge on these to straighten me out.
With regard to G Craig, I have a lot of respect for the man and believe he is doing as God has instructed him to the best of his “human” ability. I would say the same thing for you Melvin. I would never have even seen your sight if I had not heard you on the EXCAST. I also would not have received your message had I not seen the EX ministries resources. If there is any one thing that I can attribute God using first to bring me out of apostasy, it was EX ministries. This thing with Craig and you seems a bit “messy” on your part. I assume since you were interviewed by him that you have his phone number. Have you called him to minister to him about these issues you bring up on the sight??
Tree,
Good post, you hit the nail right on the head.
Ditto Tree…..
NOTE: Prayerfully, this’ll help address your questions……
Prophecy:
http://spiritoferror.wordpress.com/2006/11/20/distinguishing-psychics-from-prophets-and-other-scripture-twisting/
http://cicministry.org/commentary/issue95b.htm
http://cicministry.org/commentary/issue95.htm
Regarding Personal Words:
http://cicministry.org/commentary/issue98.htm
Regarding G. Craig and Reformed/Charismatic viewpoints (Essentials notwithstanding), seems extreme saying either one’s 100% right or both 100% wrong and something else is true.
(MN: Not at all. Two opposing and mutually exclusive views cannot simultaneously be right. One of the other has to be wrong or there is a third position that both miss, in which case they are both wrong.
Example:
1. Millard Fillmore was the President of the United States in 1863
2. Theodore Roosevelt was the President of the United States in 1863.
Statements 1 and 2 cannot simultaneously be true. If one is true, the other is false. However, a second option is that both are false since in fact -
3. Abraham Lincoln was the President of the United States in 1863.
With respect to Pentecostals (I really don’t like the term Charismatic since it’s just a less obvious way of saying Pentecostal) either the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is as they define it or it is as the non-Pentecostals define it. Either it is an experience subsequent to salvation or it is not. The peripherals (tongues speaking, etc) are just that, peripherals. It (the Baptism) cannot simultaneous be an experience subsequent to salvation and not be an experience subsequent to salvation. One is right and the other is wrong, or both are wrong. And the primary definer for Pentecostalism IS the definition of the term “Baptism of the Holy Spirit.”
I’m Reform Charismatic (http://www.sovereigngraceministries.org/About/FAQ.aspx#04)…….. And in my experiences (MN: Exactly - your experience ), seems both views contain KEY truths from Scripture, but aren’t sufficient by themselves, unless reconciled, for TOTAL UNDERSTANDING on any subject….. (MN: They may contain key truths, but that does not prevent them from containing significant errors as well. Catholicism contains significant truths. It is still incompatible with Christianity. But I am not interested at this stage to get into a discussion of Pentecostalism vs Cessationism. )
Without commitment to OBJECTIVITY (i.e. HUMBLY inquiring of all facts/testimonies, unbiasly arguing both sides of an issue, desiring Understanding above being RIGHT….Proverbs 18:2), we’re all incomplete…..
(MN: You don’t want to be right? I think you are misusing the verse you just quoted. I will study to make sure I am not wrong. In other words, I strive to make sure I get it right and that I am not simply expressing an opinion. )
(MN: Objectivity (last definition) is not arguing both sides of the issue. There is no requirement what so ever for me to argue both sides when discussing the evil of Hitler, abortion, or child abuse.
Also, I would suggest that if you believe men, moved by the Holy Spirit, speak the words of God today, even as men did in the writing of the Bible, you may use the label “Reformed” but you are not actually reformed. One of the first definers of Reformed theology is the absolute uniquely authoritative character of the Bible. Prophecy (as defined by Pentecostals) removes that uniqueness. )
JMO, Brah….
(MN: By the way, you’re starting to ruminate again. )
Tree, please cite for us the verses that tell us we cannot walk on water like Peter. Where is the verse that tells us the teleportation of Philip is no longer valid for us?? What verses tell us we cannot make iron axeheads float any longer?? Where is the Biblical proof that we can’t call fire down from heaven anymore?? What verses tell us we can’t have healing aprons like Paul??
You cannot pick and choose brother. You want to keep the manifestations you like, but don’t consider that there are many manifestations all through the Bible that simply ceased.
Now…………I am not a classical cessationist. Do I believe that God can still use tongues?? Sure (for the purpose the New Testament defines). Healing?? Absolutely. Cast out demons?? Yup.
Is this the NORMAL Christian experience?? NO………and it NEVER WAS.
The error you make is a category error. You wrongly equate the Apostolic office in the NT with the apostolic office in this era, the prophetic office in this era with the prophetic office in the OT, and the miraculous events in Acts as what should be part of everyday life ….. all of which are incorrect.
After Judas’ betrayal, the criteria for an Apostle was set forth in Scripture. Here it is…….
Act 1:15 ¶ And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,)
Act 1:16 Men [and] brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.
Act 1:17 For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.
Act 1:20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.
Act 1:21 Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us,
Act 1:22 Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.
(GV) Now…………who qualifies today?? Who was there since the beginning of Jesus’ ministry, all the way to the end, and witnessed His resurrection among those called Apostles today?? No one. Now, there ARE apostles today, but the word literally means “sent ones”. Those sent out to proclaim the Lord.
However, the Apostles (12) who wrought the miraculous spoke with DIVINE AUTHORITY, and were inspired by the Holy Spirit to write SCRIPTURE, and were witnesses to both Jesus’ ENTIRE ministry and Resurrection. Is that true today?? Of course not.
Act 1:23 And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.
Act 1:24 And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all [men], shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,
Act 1:25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.
Act 1:26 And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.
So you see TREE, there are 2 different categories of “apostle” in the New Testament. Those who were with Christ from the beginning, saw His resurrection, spoke with Divine authority, did the miraculous, and were inspired to write Scripture.
Apostles today CANNOT be equated with the 12 Apostles OR their authority OR their miracles because no one today meets the Scriptural standard to be equal with the 12 in power, authority, or inspiration.
The same goes with prophets. In the OT, the prophets were given Divine authority, their words were inspired Scripture, they were held to a standard of 100% accuracy in telling the future or faced death, and they worked miraculous signs because of their special Divine mandate. NO ONE meets the standard for that office today. How does the New Testament describe the office of prophet for the church age??
1Cr 14:3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men [to] edification, and exhortation, and comfort.
That’s it. No telling the future, no Divine authority, no inspiration, no miraculous signs.
As to the miraculous in the Book of Acts, the same category errors you cited apply. Since we have just seen the Bible itself define the vast differences between the Apostle (12) and the apostle (sent one) of today and the Prophet of the OT and the prophet of the church age (along with the miraculous Divine mandates they possessed), we can see Acts in its proper Biblical context.
Who did the Holy Spirit perform the miracles in the Old Testament and the Book of Acts through?? The vast majority through the Prophets and Apostles. There are some outside the Prophetic and Apostolic offices, but that’s not unusual since God also performs the miraculous today when there are no more Apostles or OT Prophets here. But almost without exception, the Holy Spirit worked through Prophetic and Apostolic offices that DO NOT EXIST today by the Bible’s own definition. Therefore, to expect the same miracles to be performed when the offices through which God performed them no longer exist on earth, is Biblically inaccurate.
DO miracles still occur?? YES. Does God perform them through men in a particular office any longer?? NO, because those offices are defunct by definition, and the Bible describes no others to take their place. Therefore, by the definitions the Bible itself sets forth, the miraculous will NOT be today as it was in Acts, since the offices through which the vast majority were performed no longer function.
Also, unless one does his homework, the frequency of the miraculous as it’s set forth in Acts can be misunderstood. It seems on every page there is something miraculous, and therefore many today feel that the miraculous should be an everyday experience. Well…………it wasn’t an everyday experience in Acts either. The Book of Acts covers over 30 years of time. The miracles there have to be spread out NOT OVER A FEW PAGES but over THREE DECADES.
Let’s recap………the miraculous offices of Apostle and Prophet have,by the Bible’s own definitions, changed. These changed offices are NEVER equated with the miraculous in the post Apostolic era in which we live. THEREFORE, since the miraculous OFFICES have ceased, the miraculous would diminish correspondingly though not entirely since God can and does still work miracles.
Couple that with the fact that the many miracles in Acts are actually spread out over 3 decades rather than the few pages we are used to seeing, and one can see the diminishing of the miraculous as absolutely Scripturally consistent. The daily miraculous has NEVER been the normative Christian experience in the past, and we certainly couldn’t expect it otherwise in our day with all that has changed.
Again………………God DOES the miraculous still. The gifts HAVEN’T passed away. But they are administered differently, the offices through which they flowed primarily are no longer operational, and even in the Apostolic Age they weren’t as frequent as the Charismatic fringe would like to think.
Can I add that those gifts had nothing to do with the individuals performing them and everything to do with God being glorified. This at will miraculous gift using is an unbiblical idea. Even the Apostles could not heal at will (Phil 3:25-30)
mr. woods, what Scripture did you mean to reference? there is no Phil. 3:25-30
Agreed Mr Woods. But those offices were the channels through which God worked. That was the point I was trying to make (Badly it seems
)
Phil 2 in reference to Epaphorditus. Sorry
GaryV
I have a question. According to your post, Paul (the Apostle) was not an actual Apostle? And concerning prophecy: you don’t think it still includes foretelling? I’m not talking about getting a car or something foolish that doesn’t build the body - unless you need a car to get to work and God miraculously provides you with one that someone prophecied would come.
I am asking because in Acts 22:11 when Agabus prophecied to Paul about the man that owns this belt will be bound in Jerusalem. Wasn’t that foretelling? Or are you saying that after Acts we don’t see anymore foretelling (as in you are including that one as part of the miraculous times since Corinthians was written afterwards)?
And what do you mean by “the offices through which they flowed primarily are no longer operational”? Are you saying that only apostles could do miracles and the like? That wouldn’t be true.
Okay, so it was more than one question. I appreciate any answers you give (or anyone else).
Hi Danny!!
Paul himself states this………..
1Cr 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
1Cr 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
1Cr 15:5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
1Cr 15:6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
1Cr 15:7 After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
1Cr 15:8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.
Paul even saw himself as one who didn’t quite fit the mold, but for whom God had made a dispensation. In my opinion, Paul was chosen by God as the one to take the Apostolic mantle abandoned by Judas. The Apostles may have drawn lots to do so, but God of course had His own plan. You’ll notice the replacement that Peter presided over drops from the pages of the Bible and history immediately, as Paul’s star rises above all others. Also, he DID see the resurrected Christ as he states above. There is NO OTHER provision given in Scripture for ANYONE to enter that unique Apostolic office, so it is closed unless we can find someone else who saw Christ resurrected.
As to prophetic foretelling, what I said is that while the office in the OT had foretelling as part of the ministry office, the New Testament specifically leaves that aspect OUT. That cannot be argued. In the OT, God Himself addresses the testing of the prophetic office via accuracy of prediction. No mention of that in the NT. That’s NOT an accidental omission I’m sure you agree.
NOW…………I also stated that God can still move in the miraculous (including prophetic foretelling) as He wills. He simply does NOT do so through a particular office any longer. You cannot go beyond the bounds the Bible itself when describing the office of the NT prophet, and it specifically omits foretelling.
Therefore, the office of the prophetic as practiced in the OT is no longer functional. The prophetic office in the NT has changed as the Bible itself defines it. Same with the Apostolic. It has changed as I’ve already detailed (unless you can find an apostle today who saw the resurrected Christ).
As to Agabus, let’s not get irrational. The prophetic office and the Apostolic office didn’t drop off the earth on the drop of a dime after Christ’s resurrection. There is a transition period for them just as for the Christian Body in general, most of whom at this point were STILL attending Temple, bringing sacrifices, observing festivals and Sabbaths and rituals etc.
In the real world it took many years (30 of which are detailed in Acts where the church is STILL heavily involved in the Temple’s rituals though Christ abolished them) before the Truths of Christ caused a break from Judaism.
ALSO…………..if you’ll read the post I never said that ONLY the Apostolic and prophetic offices performed miracles. I said they were the PRIMARY CHANNELS, and that is beyond dispute. Therefore the decrease in the miraculous is easy to understand. If I have two main pipes to channel water to your house, and cut them off, the water may still get to your house through smaller vessels, but it will be necessarily decreased.
Good questions!! Let me know if I wasn’t clear anywhere, OK?? Thanks!!
GaryV,
You are a voice of reason (as are others). You make excellent points indeed. The last time I checked the apostles couldn’t heal “EVERYONE” they came in contact with. Why? Simple. It was not they but the Holy Ghost. God does not go willy nilly healing whomever like the Pimps at TBN like to claim. If that were the case why doesn’t God just heal/save the lives/bless materially all the persecuted Christians throughout the world? HMMmmm. Of course if you asked a Pimp that they would say its because they lack faith. So let me get this straight, the great Creflo is just brimming with faith and the poor Sudanese are just getting their heads cut off, starving, and being pushed out of their country because they lack faith. And all this time I thought that Christians were getting persecuted since the first century. My bad. God sure isn’t working miracles in that country. Must be because they lack faith just like the Pimps like to claim. Maybe the great little god Creflo should go over their and perform miracles because as you know he is a man of God. Or better yet why doesn’t the great faith healer Benny Hinn go over their and heal the sick and starving? I mean hey, they claim the anointing still exists today. Oh, my bad Sudan doesn’t pay quite enough for their services.
Kyle
Thank you thank you thank you thank you THANK YOU! AMEN. Loved this post. God’s rich blessings on you man!
All I can say is thank you TREE….you asked the questions I myself would love answers to. I await the responses.We are all seeking an understanding of how best to apply the Word of GOD to our lives and this is important, but no mere mortal can claim to be endowed with the exact interpretation of the Word when JESUS is the WORD of GOD. I am with Deb on this…if Minister Lewis is in grave error of misinterpreting Scripture or worse, twisting the WORD of GOD to profit himself, he will face the judgment of GOD (and a public rebuke) that will come to all who preach false doctrine. But I am unwilling to condemn him just yet. I met him after the Hip Hop 4 series and I have not seen the arrogance and pride in him that others say they have seen. I don’t claim to know him. I’ll just continue to pray for him. The LORD has a way of chastening those HE loves and showing them their error and sin in a way that we cannot. The one that preaches truth and an outright liar are in time both revealed. We shall surely see…..
TREE,
I am pretty much a cessationist. I will be up front but I will answer your question from a non-cessationist view.
1. There are no scriptures that say tongues are not in exisitence; however, there is a mandate of how they should operate in the church and the way that G Craig and his followers employ them in the church gathering is SIN (1 Cor 14:27-38)
2. No where, but if God does speak he will not contradict his word, unless he make himself out to be a liar and we might as well flush our Bibles down the stool because there is extrabiblical revelation that trumps it.
3. Once again nowhere. The problem is the extrabiblical abilities of demons today. Throwing people against walls, chasing people out of their homes, manifesting themselves (you will never find a demon without a body in the entire Bible). This is Christian folklore, furthermore you didn’t see many demons gathering with a local body as you do today. The demons we see today are just passive ones that want you to watch internet porn or super strength goblins waiting to prounce on anyone who speaks against it. Both are unbiblical.
4. No scriptures again. However, when someone prophesies the accuracy rate is 100%, today you have people prophesying cars, homes, marriages, that never come to fruition and then when they don’t they blame the receptor by saying it was because you had no faith. Furthermore the prophecy today is non-biblical (as goes for tongues) there is only one reason for these Charismatic gifts and it is to build THE CHURCH, not for personal edification, not individual edification, and never is it to be done out of biblical context. (1 Cor 12)
I will tell you TREE, many of people have attempted to contact Mr. Lewis on a lot of the stuff he says, from his errors and downright negligence in representing Hip Hop, from his slander and unloving comments on Tonex, Hezekiah Walker, and the Gospel Music Awards, even to his bad doctrine and misinterpretation of scripture to try to make his point (Tyris and myself). He will not respond. And he misrepresents himself with the conversation he had with Cross Movement, he wanted them to denounce Hip Hop they wouldn’t, so it wasn’t a compromising situation it was G. Craigs way or no way. The problem is now as so many sensational charismatics before him, he is going to have to get more sensation or his little deal is about to fizzle out.
You see as I stated earlier, you can crush any CD you want, but unless God places a new heart in you, you are just dirty person putting on a all white suit. You see my friend the clothes aren’t the reason these kids are dirty, it is their SIN NATURE, so keep telling them to change clothes eventually they will ignore you because they will get fed up. The filth is in their hearts (I will continue to repeat this), it isn’t their earrings, clothes, music, schools, books, friends, or anything else. Either preach the unadulterated Gospel (not this bogus alter call foolishness, and laying hands on them) or let them do whatever, because nothing else is going to help.
Wait a minute… so demons don’t possess people anymore??
Depends on what you mean Kumbaff. Demons have never been able to possess a Holy Spirit filled believer. You can’t find one case of a Christian being possessed by a demon. So if that is your question no. As for non-believers, I would think so. Just not this tv land possession as protrayed by G Craig.
hi kumbaff, true Christians cannot be inhabited by demons. some people teach demonology and say Christians can be demonized. i don’t believe this and i don’t see where the Scriptures support this. The Holy Spirit, our Comforter resides in the believer (John 14:16-17). as for unbelievers- i’m not so sure. it seems to me that unregenerated man, shapen in iniquity is quite capable of committing all kinds of sin and abominations based apon the depraved condition of the heart. (Jer. 17:9)
i personally, don’t believe that if one is a liar- they have a lieing demon, homosexual- they need a homosexual demon cast out, porn addiction- they have a lust demon. these are all works of the flesh (Mark 7:20-23 Gal. 5:19-21)
once again, mr woods- well said. i would add emphasis to your last paragraph. all this blaming the devil for ungodly behavior is a lie and takes the focus off of who really is to blame for the evil we do- US. (Matt. 15:19, Gal. 5:19-21) for those who cared to notice, idolatry and witchcraft come from the heart-no demon was mentioned by Jesus. this is one of the reasons why i don’t like g.craige’s messages. he promotes demonology which is sensationalism at its best. to hear him tell it- there are demons attached to objects (cds, tattoos, males wearing earrings etc.) and this is the reason why some teens are rebellious. of course this isn’t the case. (Prov. 22:15) rebellion to God is inherent in all of us, period. no demons necessary. (Rom. 8:5-8)
furthermore, putting up a slide show of jay-z, 3/6 mafia, beyonce, dmx etc. etc. is tantamount to reading a gossip column. these people aren’t believers!!!! i don’t care how much any of them CLAIM to believe in God or thank Him when they receive an award. big deal they make ugly faces, shake their behinds to incite lust, use profanity, promote misogyny, fornication, drug use etc.- they’re simply doing what SINNERS do. until they have a bonafide encounter with the true and living God, and have their sins washed away and their consciences purged- they will continue to live in darkness and revel it.
I have only one question for Mrs. Maverick and Mr. Woods; is it okay that Hezekia Walker sang on an album with KRS One? I only ask to clarify that maybe you are saying that G. Craige should not say the things he says, or are you saying that you see nothing wrong with it? Also, do you think that the Gospel Music Awards represent God, or do you just feel Mr. Lewis’ way of talking about them is wrong?
I would say no. However, I have to go back to liberty. I wrote in total disagreement about Yolanda Adams and Bone also. However, I may be stoned for this one, but they have the liberty to do as they please in this matter due to the fact there is no mandate against it. The best case you can throw out is 2 Cor 6 or “have no fellowship with the world”, however I would have to leave my job if it applied across the board. I don’t like it and I would firmly debate the issue but at the end of the day it is a matter of concience. I wouldn’t do it, and I would speak against it, but since I am a Sola Scriptura dude I may have to take a step back from my personal conviction.
Mr. Woods,
Based on what is being promoted in the partnering of Yolanda Adams and Bone Thugs in Harmony, Christian liberty does not apply. Let’s look at Ephesians 5:1-11 (emphasis vs. 11)
I have a question for you. Is Yolanda Adams reproving the unfruitful works of darkness promoted by Bone Thugs by appearing on a song with them? What about when she appeared with Chaka Khan? Kanye West? Before anyone says “Well you don’t know what they talked about in private” as an excuse why it’s okay, let me say that we do know what they did in public. We also know that Bone Thugs has not since made a public declaration that they have come to Christ and renounced the evil of the past. Sorry but if “liberty” is my membership card to club “Do Anything I Want As Long As The Bible Doesn’t Have a Thou Shalt Not” then let me stop typing and go get a crack pipe and get high for Jesus. Absurd.
I would add that if your job promotes unfuitful works of darkness (that is as it being the primary reason for existing as a business and those works providing the income) then yes you should quit. Slippery slope? Maybe. But only when we as believers are ready to make all sacrifices necessary to honor God will we not cringe at the thought of loss. Only then will we prove to not be of this world.
As I stated before I’ll state again, I truly believe that you worship Hip Hop and have not denied yourself. That is why you claim not to defend it while defending it. Am I judging you? Yes, from your words. Matthew 15:18 teaches that your words are a means by which to judge your heart. I’m attempting to judge righteous judgment. If I’m off then I apologize now and ask for your forgiveness. However, my main point is that we should be careful what causes, issues, habits, etc. that we give “liberty” to.
hi trayjay, to answer your first q- it doesn’t bother me in the least that hezekiah collaborated w/ krs one simply because i don’t know hezekiah personally. if i did then i would feel differently. i don’t even know whether he’s a true believer or not. i’m not into gospel artists at all. as far as i’m concerned, gospel artists are entertainers and are chasing fame and fortune just like secular artists. i don’t believe they are singing for the Lord. sure they talk about Jesus, and praise His Name in the music but singing gospel songs is not the earmark of true Christianity which leads me to your other q:
as far as gospel awards shows go- i don’t watch them. i think it’s just the flesh on display and promotes wordly competition. i don’t believe they should be receiving any awards for singing about God. so no, i don’t believe these shows are representative of Christ in any form or fashion. i’m tired of this whole celebrity status of people who are professing Christ. it’s disgusting.
and lastly, i think craige lewis can say whatever he wants to say as long as it’s factual. but he’s made unsubstantiated comments which have damaged his credibility.
(MN: Nicely summarized Ms. Mav. Nicely summarized. )
I appreciate you Ms. Maverick. I also believe that Mr. Lewis is building a strawman to help his case. I have been bashing these clowns you listed above for years. G Craig ain’t said nothing new he just bottled. Who thought we would pay 1.25 for a bottle of water and now people are paying Mr. Lewis to tell them something Cross Movement and others have been screaming for years. “Get your children away from that foolishness”. I should have sold DVD’s on this. Hey Ms. Maverick me, you and Tyris can do the same thing, just be theologically sound! Anybody want to join?
I’m game, lol
ITA with the sin nature portion of your comment. In my previous comment about a service at my church, this is exactly what I saw - kids using Christian sounding lyrics to mask the sin they were really displaying with their actions. It looked just like a secular concert complete with dancing and all. I don’t have much problem with the clothes. Styles of dressing change for most as they age and can’t get away with wearing half of that stuff anyway - professionally or otherwise.
I also totally agree with the things said about Mr. Lewis’ slander of others. I have read his site and there isn’t one artist, secular or gospel it seems, that he has anything good to say about.
That’s what I mean by his coming off as if he is above reproach.
Great post. We all need the unadulterated gospel.
Not a single person on the face of this earth right now who claims they are a Christian tongue talker today has been able to walk up to an unbeliever of another language and minister to them. Nobody that claims the gift of tongues is doing that.
1 Corinthians 14:32 - If you’ve got the gift of tongues you should be able to summon it on your own command just as someone who has the gift of love. Because God gave you the gift and it’s subject to the one who has it. So someone who honestly has the gift of tongues should be able to minister to an unbeliever of another language at will.
Once you who claim tongues can actually do it, then we will talk. I’m not saying it can’t happen, I’m just able to realize you’re not really talking in any language at all and making it up from physical emotion, by allowing your tongue to utter whatever sounds hit the roof of your mouths. I’ve done it too and then I grew up and put away childish things. Be honest folks, today it’s being faked unlike instances recorded in the Bible.
Just admit it and move on to attaining the greater gifts of the spirit.
Agreed IC……………but I’m not ready to say that God CAN’T use tongues in that manner since He did in the past and never revoked the gift. What I AM willing to say is that tongues as defined and practiced by the church at large is nothing but babbling gibberish.
Agreed. As I mentioned, I’m not saying it can’t happen. God can allow what he wants when he wants. But we need to admit that what is going on today is not real.
People are investing time in a minor gift that nobody actually has at the moment, when the time should be invested in the greater gifts of the spirit. Which is probably why God is not allowing anyone to make use of the real gift of tongues at the moment.
IC
That’s a pretty strong statement based largely upon only your own experiences. I have known people to have just the gift you are speaking of. I don’t know why you put such emphasis on them doing the ministering (by their own will), though. On the day of pentecost, the 120 didn’t know what they were saying and they certainly hadn’t uttered those things of their own will. The people hearing them in Jerusalem heard them glorifying God in many languages. That was how they ministered *on that day anyway*.
I agree that many do utter nonsense, but its unfair to say that ALL are uttering nonsense.
Paul said the gift of tongues if for the unbeliver, 1 Corinthians 14:22. Now if you can’t use the gift to minister to an unbeliever THAN YOU DON’T HAVE IT. And any unbeliver you go spewing gibberish to is going to say you’re out of your mind. So either you had better speak in their language or forget about it. Do you even realize what tongues was for in the first place? Read Isaiah 28:11-14. It was foretold by the prophet Isaiah that the gift of tongues would be used to speak to unbelieving Jews, that was the “this people” Isaiah spoke of. It was used to speak to Jews in Acts 2 and a sign for them. Nobody can use it to even speak to their Mexican next door neighbor today, even if that Mexican was a Jewish Mexican.
I spend as much time as our benevolent dictator allows me on this issue, because many Christians are sitting around babbling and claiming activity of God that is untrue. Bottom line, it bears false witness on the actions of God. And even unbelievers know it’s phony, even when one person does it, because it’s not an actual language that is being spoken, whether 1 person is doing it, or a room full, which Paul warned about.
Before the nuts that do the “holy laughter” bit, this made up and fake form of “tongues” was promoted with mess like Azuza. Maybe if the church stood up stronger against the fake tongues, we would not see so many falling for the “holy laughter” nonsense and jumping around and then blaming it on God.
Danny, it’s being faked. Yes, if you have a gift 1 Corinthians 14:32 applies and notice Paul spoke of you having control of a gift in the same section (chapter) of the same letter where he mentions it’s for unbelievers. Along with all the other rules for it that are not followed. Why follow the rules when you’re making it up in the first place? Even if they followed the rules and record that gibberish you won’t find anyone in the world who can honestly translate it.
1 Corinthians 13 speaks of “childish things” for a reason, read the whole chapter. Paul was not talking about toy Tonka trucks. He was talking about tongues being a minor gift for babes. That’s the context Paul put it in back then. He told of greater gifts, but where there is pimping there also is often this fake tongues nonsense. Not the higher gifts that Paul spoke of. Because if they worked in the higher gifts, they’d have to give the money away.
I.C you’re on point,
Hey I.C.you’re right, this stuff today is a Mess.
These people have what I call a confused tongue. The reason they get over, is because the world doesn’t know any better. But with traditions and the conditioned Christian just jumping in line and accepting the confused tongue with these babbling like they came from God.The verse that I would use is this 1 Corinthians, 13:10 I’ll say it its over? Tongues was never use for people to
Just to stand up in some building to feel like they got some kind of power. It’s sad I can’t tell you how many times I have seen or heard the confused tongues. First of all tongues were for those who “believe not”? So we no this stuff today is nothing more than babbling’s as Gary V said. It’s for them what ever it is, it’s a tongue what kind of tongue I don’t know, but not the tongues of the bible.P.S. Let’s
Not use 1 Corinthians, 14:27, 28 we all know this doesn’t happen this way.
Oh I’ve heard supposed interpretations of babblings. We don’t even want to go there.
Me too IC!!! I’ve heard some of the most ignorant, unGodly, ridiculous statements put in the mouth of the LORD by folks supposedly “interpreting” tongues. I mean stuff that had me alternately laughing out loud or boiling with anger.
I’ve even seen an interpretation of tongues given by someone that conflicted with the interpretation of the person who GAVE the message in tongues. It’s ludicrous.
GDub, when you want to discredit someone, you may want your source to be other than a bona-fide nutjob like Darwin Fish (who wouldn’t know a True Church from a true beachball).
Here’s a little something from his FAQ page.
1. Are you the only true church/believers?
We do not know. There was a church in Murfreesboro, TN, but that has since dissolved. Other than that, we have not yet, as of this date, found another church that is in the truth (1 John 4:6), and we have been to many. Will we find one? Actually, the real question is, will Christ find one?
When the Son of Man comes, will He really find faith on the earth? (Luke 18:8, see also 2 Timothy 3:1-5; 4:3; 2 Peter 2:2)
Some foolishly (Matthew 7:1-2) judge us to be in error because we can not name another true church, but their standard is a standard of men, not the word of God (Matthew 15:8-9).
In regards to other Christians, we believe there may be at least one Rechabite (Jeremiah 35:18-19) and other believers on the planet (Romans 11:2-5). But, we have yet to meet any other disciples of Christ who we are convinced are among those who continue in the faith (Romans 2:7; 1 John 2:3-5). We long to meet other saints, but the days we live in are dark (Revelations 12:9), and most are deceived (2 Timothy 3:1-5; 4:3; 2 Peter 2:2). To our recollection, we have only met one believer that was already in the truth before they met us, and in this case, they had just recently repented. Other than this ONE exception, everyone we have met has been in some way caught in the deceit of this age (2 Timothy 3:1-5; 4:3; 2 Peter 2:2). We ourselves were caught in such deception, but the Lord delivered us from those who speak perverse things; and He continues to deliver us (Proverbs 2:12).
Q2. Is Darwin Fish the only true pastor in the world?
Please read question #1.
Q3. Can you name any other true believers/teachers in history (outside of the Bible) since the early church (100 AD) until now?
NO, and some are aghast that we would answer in such a way. They erroneously conclude, therefore, that we must be a cult. But, here again is another man-made standard by which fools judge (Matthew 7:1-2). Where in the Word of God does it say we should be able to name true believers of the past? Nowhere. For a more detailed response to this question, see our article, Believers Of The Past.
Q4. How many people are in your church?
Currently there are about 50 people. We have often been wrongly accused of evil because our size is small. But we know truth is not by majority vote (2 Peter 2:2), and narrow is the way and few find it (Matthew 7:13-14; Luke 13:24).
Q5. Do you ever sin?
Please see Ecclesiastes 7:20 and 1 John 1:8 & 9 for the answer to this one.
Let me get this straight…………..the source for your contention that Reformed theology is wrong is this flaky little “sinless” cultist who believes that he is the ONLY true pastor on earth, that only FIFTY are currently saved, and that EVERYONE but he himself is wrong doctrinally THROUGHOUT CHURCH HISTORY.
Sounds familiar, doesn’t it?? Like the Mormons, the JWs, the People’s Temple, the Branch Davidians, etc etc etc. Same deception, different flavor Kool-Aid.
So, according to Fish, such luminaries as John Owen, John Bunyan,Charles Spurgeon, Jonathan Edwards, John Calvin, etc are ALL WRONG and burning in hell because they were unsaved.God preserved the Truth through Darwin Fish alone. Uhhhhhhhh….yeah.
Fish denies the Trinity, believes that God is a human being like the the Mormons, advocates BEATING children until they are marked and bruised, demands that women submit to beatings by their husbands as well, claims that polygamy and concubinage are permissible as long as the law of the land allows it,claims that anyone not directly under his “ministry” is going to hell,and is now pontificating on the blessedness of masturbation.
If this heretical cultist is your “pastor” or “leader” in any way, you have some serious issues. Being a drooling, frothing, degenerate cult leader is bad enough. Being dim-bulbed and deceived enough to follow a raving lunatic like this is inexcusable.
I second that. I didnt look at his source, but once “Darwin Fish” came up on your post, it cleared alot up because I did not look at the original link, or pay attention to the references.
The man (D. Fish) thinks EVERYONE is lost. To be honest, I would rather be an “infidel” than really attempt to live to his standard of what salvation really is.
There is apparently no hope outside of what he says is the gospel.
He is worse than a “PIMP”. Straight whack job.
Many thank, Gary, for highlighting in depth the aforementioned things (didn’t even recognize his denial of the Trinity/supporting spousal abuse)…
Many of the other things (i.e. polygamy, masturbation, etc) I noticed when first investigating his site and paused…..but with many of the Biblically sound arguments regarding exposing False teachers, and articles against the same folks dealt with here, it was hard not to try wading through his stuff to find anything remotely noteworthy……
And what this maniac’s mentioned about MacArthur/Psycho-Heresy + more has indeed been raised before by others on other various sites besides his (Ex. http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/exposes/macarthur/general.htm )
Blessings, Brah…..
OK GDub, that’s cool………I was sort of confused as to whether you were actually advocating for Fish the Foul.
Color me relieved.
A confession. Melvin, when I first saw the title of your website I was aghast - How could this man use the word “pimp” in the title?….now, after taking the time to read the contents properly - I think the site is right on. To the brother who quoted Darwin Fish, with respect, get real - this man should be locked up. Phil Johnson has an excellent expose on the beliefs of Mr Shark (oops, Fish) it’s so outlandish, it makes you want to put Snow White into the non fiction side of the library!
Mr Shark
Fish is a liar!
Hey everyone:
I am a musician and love music, but I love the Lord and His word even more. What I am noticing in the churches is a vast majority of the music reflects the preaching. whether the style is hip-hop, Jazz, gospel, etc… The message in the music is a direct result of the teachings that is being taught. What do you think?
Interesting thought. I can’t wait to see the responses.
My church is http://www.lifelinebible.org three Christian Hip Hop artist has come from my church (www.reachrecords.com) Lecrae, Tedashii and Sho. We teach expositorarly, systematically and I would put our teaching elder up with most teachers today. He is sound, true to the text, and has a heart for missions, locally and nationally. You will not see us jumping around acting crazy (as most say Hip Hoppers do) as for our congregants, some wear slacks others wear shorts. Just depends. We meet in small groups where we dig deep into God’s word, our worship is Christ Centered (our worship leader happens to be sound theologically and his life lines up with his profession). So it depends.
Maybe if the material didn’t have a price tag on it more people could determine for themselves.
Hey Artwork, CD production and other things cost money, not to mention mixing, studio time, production and the work that goes into it. I never once disagreed with Mr. Lewis on anyone else for that matter selling their material. They worked hard for it. The great authors of our day charged for books. We have to be careful not to say to charge, because this is how they make their living. So I have never knocked G. Craig for the selling of his material, as a matter of fact I say pay for it.
(MN: Agreed. Despite IC’s very vocal opinion to the contrary. )
I’m not authorizing bootlegging, not at all. I want to make that clear beyond all doubt. Obey the law, even copyright laws.
The deeds of secular authors do not justify actions in ministry.
Maybe you don’t need the artwork and various production facets? Maybe people who wish to minister to saints via song as mentioned in scripture like Colossians 3:16 should do so minus the major production efforts? Unless they have already been freely given funds to support it.
I see a Bible full of support for freely given donations. I can’t honestly bend a single verse to support a fixed fee.
Amen. I listen to Lecrae, Tedashii and Sho, so it is really strange and disheartening to me when I see fellow Christians accusing ALL Christian rappers of promoting sinful lifestyles. It’s just plain dishonest. Anyway…thanks for this.
Exactly and glad you mentioned it.
I hear singers like Donald Lawrence, who is tight with prosperity doctrine mega-church pastors doing songs like “It’s Your Inheritance” and when he says “go get your inheritance” he’s not talking about anything of a spiritual nature.
The mega-pastors enjoy doing away with doctrine and you’ve got Kurt Carr (who does much work for the Inspiration Network’s frequent pimp-a-thons) saying things in his song “God Great God” that are not on the lyric sheet, like we should stop being caught up in “doctrine” and “just praise God” together.
The singer is a very integral part of the game where games are being played. For the pimp, the musician is the one who makes much of the pimping possible and keeps the people coming back for more.
Bingo!Wow!You,IC, are totally right in your assessment of the Gospel Music industry’s double dealing ways-I can’t believe they actually work for the enemy!The pimping pastors along with the seducing sounds of these “so-called Christian” recording artist “molest” the unsuspecting sheep out of their money.The artist are now in cohoots with the wolves, and that is such a horrible shame!TBN is filled with every popular christian act around.(you know you have made it when you hit TBN’s stage!)Everytime you turn around, somebody is begging/singing for pledges!This is so sad!I.C.-Great post!
Well having been fooled by it all once myself, I just pray I don’t fall for any of the other tricks out there.
I’ve noticed something else in relation to this.
Once upon a time and even now, many pastors find it a bit “underhanded” to take up a collection just after preaching a sermon. Since you know the people are caught up in what they feel “thus saith the Lord” it’s kind of frowned upon to send the collection plates around after the sermon. Pimps of old used to always pass the plates after their guilt riddled sermons. Making people feel they could pay for repentance, or the blessing.
Now, the pimps leverage the “praise team”. They hype the people up and then pass the plates. So that they feel they must give much to show praise via a big donation. So now the pimp does not have to do the noted underhanded practice of preaching the money out of their pockets. He lets the “praise team” sing it out. Now they only preach it out at the pimp-a-thons.
It’s like they’ll pull anything to take it from someone giving what they intended to give, to that person giving more because they are on an emotional high and claim they felt “the Laud” tell them to “stretch out on faith”. Never mind the past due bills.
(MN: On the other hand, if you’re going to do it during service you have to do it some time. Though I myself am in favor of what the church I used to attend used to do: Announce that there is a box at the back of the room. If you want to give something, then do. Unfortunately, we got a bigger, better facility and the pastor went full time. Guess what? The order of service then included a collection. But in their defense, I can’t say they got the crowd hyped. The songs weren’t really the hyping kind. )
Well you know I’m talking about places where they hype folks up to dupe them into giving more. Where they make the folks “cheer” when the time for giving is announced. So everyone can be “cheerfully”, but nearly none (a terribly small percentage) of that “giving” goes towards what Jesus or the apostles instructed it be used for. Which makes the whole thing bogus.
When God gave instructions for giving, it was for the benefit of poor saints and scripture like 1 Corinthians 16:1-4 shows Paul knew God told him not to use his own stature to hype money out of people’s pockets. And God didn’t recommend a “praise team” hype people beyond what they intended to give either.
The “box is in the back” idea is a good method. A shame they abused what they collected. Now that place is a big burden with a bigger building to support (which will only be replaced by something bigger, probably even before that is paid off) and a lead man seeking to maintain full time support. It’s not “ministry”, it’s on par with a Vegas show that continues to try and move to a bigger venue.
Hey Yochee, I feel you brother. I am a musician/music teacher too. Yes most of the music is reflective of the word of faith heresy. I like Israel Houghton’s music alot, but his messages tend to talk about the Word Faith “new season, increase, favor, enlarge my territory.
I co-sign, with you. I love Israel as well. However, I have long stopped listening to music by some gospel artists. I now listen to artist like, Steven Curtis Chapman, Newsboys, Third day, Michael V. Smith, Mercy me and David Crowder to name a few. They put the focus on Jesus and not the “new season”, increase and favor songs that you are speaking about.
Hey AngieB especially his “Another Breakthrough” Song, how about. “Another Level”, How about a fresh annointing coming your way. I really like “Breathe into me” (what does that mean exactly), My favoite though is “Your Latter will be Greater” I don’t know about you but those our my favorites!
P.S “The Favor of the Lord” isn’t too shabby either.
Mr. Woods,
Those are mine too. I am not going to cut Israel off just yet like I have some of the others. I still like his style of worship. However, i have grown to love the artists I mentioned in my post which are all Caucasian. Sorry to admit it but there lyrics focus more on Jesus than the African American gospel artist. IMHO
Peace and Blessings
Angie B I have a question for you. Why do you specify that most of the artist you listen to are Caucasian? What difference does it make? I took insult to that statement. You are stereotyping like most of our people of color that if you are white then you are right, and if you are black stay back. I think you may have crossed the line here. If you are going to post comments like that then you are being somewhat bias and unfair.
Too many times I have seen white pastors who lead black congregations and yet do not have a black person on staff, and if they do that person semi runs the music department. Black people have created deposited and have given a great and rich heritage and legacy to this country. Our Caucasian brothers & sisters have artists like “Creed” Audio Adrenaline, and Dogwood who are considered rock groups. All of us on here have different likes and choices this is why we have differences. Have you forgotten it was the writings of our ancestors that in the 30’s-70’s that the Caucasians would copy or re record the songs they wanted to hear that black artist did but only wanted to hear from a white perspective. Before anyone jumps on me I do realize that some will say that God is neither black or white. But remember he has given each race of people an identity.
One last thing AngieHave you stopped to listen to Ce Ce Winans Throne Room. Or maybe a Richard Smallwood, Rodney Posey, Thomas Whitfield, or maybe Earnest Pugh? What about the old Walter Hawkins material and the likes? You cannot tell me that when you listen to the likes of these that their songs would make you cry and make you think about and talk about Jesus. That is because they sing about him. Remember that we sing out of experiences and out of passion.
Ce
Yochee, that’s to be expected isn’t it?? After all, my old church actually CHANGED THE LYRICS TO AMAZING GRACE at the pastor’s request. No more “wretch”!!! After all (he said in the staff meeting), we are THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD IN CHRIST!!!
BUT, when I pointed out to that same pastor later that the Bible verses cited in the Charismatic ditty “Blow The Trumpet In Zion” were NOT about the Body of Christ as a conquering army, he barely blinked. I told him that in context the army was the army of locust sent by God to devour His people for their sin. Still no blink. He changed the words to AMAZING GRACE but IGNORED blatant Scripture mangling.
You see……….both instances over music said something foundational about his doctrine. Amazing Grace could be changed because it wasn’t EMPOWERING. It showed man in a “bad” light, and we aren’t “bad” anymore. And that’s the way he preached.
“Blow The Trumpet In Zion” would NOT be changed, because even though it twists the Word of God lyrically, it was catchy and got folks excited. And that’s how he preached too………..twisting the Word and appealing to emotion.
I cannot imagine my old pastor putting Luther’s “A Mighty Fortress Is Our God” in the “worship” song rotation. It conflicts entirely with what he preached, and what was in his heart.
Conversely, I cannot imagine John Owen tapping his toes and dancing around to the tune of “Jesus On The Mainline (Tell Him What You Want).” It conflicts entirely with what he preached, and what was in his heart.
The pimps can’t have Biblically sound theology in their music for goodness sake. God forbid the Truth take hold of the sheep through music, and they begin to compare that Truth with the vapid and vacuous spew of the pimps.
Yochee
I noticed it too. And like you, I love the Lord so much more than the gifts that He has given me. So much so, that I would rather not sing Gospel at all than sing half of the stuff that passes for “gospel” these days.
In fact, I have started performing more jazz than gospel these days by putting a jazz feel on the old hymns I love. Am I committing sacrilege?
if God gets the glory, praise be to His name!
Melvin, you don’t have to post this (not that you need me to tell you that), but I would be curious to know what people’s opinions would be if they completely removed G. Craige’s doctrinal beliefs and only looked at his overall message regarding music - not necessarily Hip-Hop. His message isn’t just about Hip-Hop, but what do they think about the overall message regarding all music. An example would be if they read a sheet of paper that only mentioned the message about the music with no name, no mention denominational beliefs, only the message. Just curious.
(MN: I don’t base my judgment of the validity of his Hip Hop comments on my evaluation of his doctrine. I try to look only at the accuracy of what he is saying about the Holy Hip Hoppers, the Hip Hoppers, and the Rappers. The accuracy of what he says is determined completely apart from his doctrine. Though at the same time, his doctrine is to be considered in deciding whether or not to use him as a source for my own or others’ edification.
One example of my concerns for his accuracy is the back masking thing with one of the performers’ songs (about half way down the article). Apparently the song was a remix, not cut by the performer but cut by a disc jockey. And apparently Mr. Lewis has been informed of this little tidbit. The difficulty is that he continues to speak as though the back masking was done by the original artist and that the original artist has, as a goal, the worshiping of Satan, the evidence being the back masked song. This goes directly to Mr. Lewis’ credibility. His doing this kills his credibility and what little credibility Pentecostalism may have, especially since Pentecostals say their experience makes them on fire for the truth.
Consider Hank
HanagHanegreH. Much of what he has said in the past, and even now, is no less true despite the…uh…ethical challenges he has been faced with. And his preterist views are invalid despite the really good work that has come out of CRI.Each item has to be evaluated on its own. However, if you can find a good source for something, nothing says you have to stay with the obviously flawed one. Creflo does occasionally speak the truth. But I would be a fool to stay with him and pick out the good stuff rather than going with John MacArthur. It’s like choosing a bony fish steak over a filet of the exact same fish. They both taste good, but one is a lot more trouble than the other. )
MN. I can see why you would say that about Hank with his perterist views. But let’s not forget there are holes in dispensationalist views too. By the way, Hank is a partial preterist so you guys have some things in common.
MN, if possible please explain your comment “And his preterist views are invalid despite”
(MN: Simply this: The fact that a person is judged to be correct in one area does not guarantee that he is correct in another. And conversely, if they are wrong in one area he is not automatically wrong in another. However, depending on what the error is, it may disqualify him from preaching or teaching.
For instance, if a preacher were to say that everybody will eventually end up being saved (universalism a la Carlton Pearson), and somehow gets virtually everything else right (unlikely, I know), that preacher is still disqualified - he got one of the essentials wrong. Not everything a pentecostal says is false, just like not everything a Covenant person teaches is true. Of course, as Benevolent Dictator I am right all of the time because I refuse to publish any proof of the fact that I made a mistake.
Another teacher (say Hank H.) may preach preterism - that all or most of Bible Prophecy has already been fulfilled in Christ and the on-going expansion of His Kingdom. While I violently disagree with the view, I don’t see it as a hinge upon which turns salvation or an overall accurate view of Scripture with respect to the believer living a holy life.
Now comes the fuzzy part - not every one agrees on “essentials.” Some folks’ set of essentials is smaller than others’. Some folks essentials consist primarily of the things they are most fond of or what they were taught at the start of their walk with Christ. As an example, some Pentecostals (especially those of the Oneness variety) will insist that you must listen only to “religious” music. This is an essential to them, but not to me or most other Christians. Some see women wearing pants as an essential. Some see refraining from wine as an essential.
I know several people who have dismissed everything Charles Stanley has ever said in the past, and will ever say in the future because his wife divorced him. This is ludicrous. True is true regardless of the vessel speaking the truth.
However, it makes little sense for me to turn to a Pentecostal for instruction because I know his view of Spirituality, Biblical authority, and worship are going to differ significantly from mine in ways I believe are wrong. Is he a horrible, wicked man for believing what he does? No. Would I recommend others study under him? No. I would be somewhat hesitant to recommend study under Charles Stanley, depending on the subject and a couple of other criteria. But even on this side of the divorce, he still has very good things to say - despite his insistence on tithing as a requirement.
Sorry for the meandering. I just wanted to make sure I covered the question as clearly as possible. )
This truce regarding preterism is being strained to the limit
.
(MN: I agree. DTG, where’s that article? )
Wow, you said a mouth full but you did not answer the question. Also the word “violently” denotes an attitude of intolerance which leads me to believe that the post I asked you to consider on convent eschatology will fall on rocky ground. So, once completed I’ll post it on my blog, I’ll send you the link maybe we can discuss it.
I’ll try again.
The fact that Hank H is very good at examining the flaws of the cults does not mean he is correct in his teaching of Preterism.
Again, my apologies for talking so much.
By the way, “violent” doesn’t equate to intolerance. I would never try to keep Hank from teaching preterism or any other doctrine. Christianity, when practiced according to the teachings of Jesus Christ, is very tolerant.
To MN: I unerswtand what you are saying concerning Hank Hanegraaff and his preterist views. However, do you belive alot of the things that were taught to us is just a two century old view? For example, how about John Nelson Darby and how he taught on the dispensational view? Those views entered into the Theological Seminaries and into our Bibles, such as the Scoffield.
To The Man can you please tell me where you stand? Because MN never said anything yet. State your position before the post comes up please.
tell us not after the post no need to be
DTG: I am just a person who love my LORD JESUS CHRIST. I’m not here to fight or to prove a point. There just so much nonsenes on eschatology. I’m not old or young i study for many years,you probably wonder if I’m black or white (lol).BUT I WILL STAND ON THE TRUTH. p.s. It is not about views, but truth. THE Man
msamu - You’ve got to post it here. That was the agreement. Melvin agreed not to alter the post when you send it in to him. So everyone will be able to make their own judgment based on the information you provide.
I.C the fact that covenvent eschatology is looked upon with such distaste and MNs violent attitude toward (MN: I don’t have a violent attitude toward it ) it I did not want to divert from pulpit-pimps theme. It’s important that one’s mind, spirit and intellect are willing to receive; mind you I am not asking you to believe merely to receive and examine. We are working on the paper and will submit it to MN ASAP
(MN: I wrote the tail end of my previous comment before I saw this. I guess great minds work alike, eh? )
The History of Gospel
The modern day gospel music experience is less than 50 years old. Gospel music is the music of African Americans and is ever changing. From the start it was always met with challenges and today is no different. Many older members of churches think that the music is too worldly. Younger members of the church think that older members of the church just don’t understand them. But no matter what, Gospel music is here to stay.
During the periods of 1900-1930’s gospel music can be attributed to the social changes that were taking place in the country. Many blacks from the south were starting to move from the south to other areas of the US and bringing with them their form of Gospel music. Gospel music was a form of expression for these people. Gospel music was and still is a thirst for music African Americans can call their own.
The second stage for Gospel music came during the 30’s, which is called the Dorsey Era. Thomas Dorsey is referred to as the Father of Contemporary Gospel. His songs combined shouts of praise and emotional fervor with a contemporary style that was very much unwelcome in some churches throughout the US.
Then came the 40’s, when gospel music started to change. During this period of time Gospel ensembles and quartets were organized. These groups began to travel throughout the US. By having the groups travel throughout the US it helped to create a demand for this type of music. Shortly after WW2 blacks started to purchase Gospel records in record breaking numbers. The Rev. Herb Brewster of Memphis established himself as the foremost Gospel songwriter of this era. Gospel quartets had mass public appeal. The members of these groups were casually attired and presented a more flamboyant image.
The 50’s brought more changes in Gospel music. The ensembles were accompanied by a piano or organ. Some of the groups of this era were the Clara Ward Singers of Philadelphia, The Staple Singers of Chicago and Albertina Walker of Atlanta. Albertina Walker formed a group called the Caravan that featured James Cleveland, who became a famed composer, conductor and soloist.
Gospel remained very unchanged during the 60’s, 70’s and early 80’s. Then it seemed like gospel music went hip hop. Many rap artists had turned their lives around and found God. The rap group RUN DMC is a good example. After rapping for many years the group turned to rapping about God. During the 90’s Kirk Franklin hit the airwaves with Gospel music that was loud and close to worldly.
But all through its history Gospel music is something that African Americans can claim as their own. Gospel music shares its roots in other African American music styles like blues, jazz, and its cousin rock and roll AND NOW HIP HOP.
When? I was a BIG RUN DMC fan and not once did they give the lord glory maybe a line but their music was primarily “rockin” you and lifes a big party I listened to them for years…..No they accutally reference HELL and how they will end up there….
Your missing the point, it’s an expression it’s what they know ( Hip-Hop) so they express with what they know be it to the world or to God. Is it nor true God hears the heart not the beat.
Well then DMX must be saved covered in real pig blood and making songs in converse that he feel honors the Lord “Im ready to meet him”.
He claims to profess Christ as a choice as well despite these, and has a song called “The Omen” with Marilyn Manson, and engages in a full-on conversation with the devil, and sells his soul as a result of accepting the invites to the devil’s promptings.
So you say that God looks on the heart, but the collaboration with those of another persuation is evident. How ridiculous is that??
Gridiron, there’s no scripture to support one type of music above another (in this case Hip-Hop). God knows the heart of man and he will judge the intent of our heart; on the other hand we have to judge a person by their actions. If a man is a pimp or worse and seems to be praising the Lord in song and we know that this person’s action’s and the Gospel they preach is suspect we then have the responsibility to ask ourselves, should I worship with this person? If the answer is no then turn the channel or leave the building, refuse to join in spirit with them. It’s not the music but the person behind the music.
Msamu,
Just because RUN DMC came out with their album title, “Down with the King” in 1992 which “supposedly” was about Christ in no way implies that they are saved nor are they giving the Lord proper praise. As I stated before Rev (so called) Run of RUN DMC is by no means living the Christian life. And as I also said Kirk Franklin is a TBN lackey.
Kyle
Exactly my point. The collaboration (Down w/the King - released in May 1993) for the song, video, etc SAID one thing considering the words, but ANOTHER by the company they keep in displaying the video, and whom they worked with on the project.
Production on the entire album by Pete Rock, CL Smooth, Naughty by Nature (OPP anyone ??) and Public Enemy. Does this glorify God no matter what the lyrics are? We know all about OPP & Naughty by Nature.
The remix to the song (Down With the King) was inevitably a collaboration as well showing that it was a completely joint venture.
Your RUN-DMC example was poor. But I guess as long as I know God looks onto the heart, I can sing about him…rap or whatever…..and still collaborate with those whom are interested in promoting promiscual sex and ride that as a reputation to stardom.
Why would I (as a Christian) want individuals such as these even working with me on my own project, if I am all about Christ??
I think this exposes the vein of ecumenicalism that has infected our society. Notice most of those involved in the production are Muslims of some sort, members of the cult of Muhammad, that rejects Jesus as Lord.
AFAIK Jesus and salvation were not mentioned on that album…
Good research there Gridiron.
Amen Grid!!
In the later part of their career together, Run DMC did start doing things where they were actually trying to give some glory to God, such as their track Down with the King.
I don’t know if they ever said they themselves would end up in hell, but in tracks like Raising Hell, DMC claimed things like:
Not exactly correct in a theological sense, but not an endorsement for hell or Satan either.
They did mention hell in much of there material, but I don’t ever think they painted it in a favorable light. Usually they spoke of themselves in terms of overcoming hell or defeating the devil.
Now Run and DMC claim to be Christians. Run even claims to be a “reverend”. Run has a TV show on MTV. DMC claims to be a church deacon.
I’ve got some issues with Run and DMC that I could list and then there are things they’ve done to help some kids in their later life.
But they really are still caught up in the big money celebrity culture, which has many evil trappings, maybe Run more so than DMC. DMC was recently interviewed as saying it would be “gangsta” for you to vote for Hillary Clinton. They’ve always tried to combine the B-Boy (bad boy) style with something a little more noble, but I don’t think it’s a good direction to take.
Of course, if you look at the inside jacket of a tape/CD from the ultra reprobate group NWA, they always gave thanks to “God” first in their “thank you” section
.
So of course you’ve got many who make the drum beat for Satan himself who claim “God” in their material.
As I’ve said before, I just find it best to leave that entire culture alone. Minister to all, but I don’t encourage kids to be part of the Hip Hop culture in any of it’s forms. Although my focus with any kids has always been on the reprobate lyrics in their favorite material. I focus on their head and figure the body will in time follow suit.
IC, i agree. The problem that i find with alot of Christian Hiphopers is that they identify themselves with hiphop culture. I’m not saying that none of them are saved, but its dangerous to promote and align your self to a “culture”.
I used to be into hip hop very, very heavily. Going to shows, rapping, buying music, etc.. When i came to Christ, it was a major stonghold that i had to shake off. As i began to move away from the secular stuff, i had a musical void that i had to fill. So this is how i got introduced to Holy Hiphop. But through much self-examination, the Lord showed me that i was just masking my addiction to the culture and the music.
To make a long story short i had to come to no other conclusion than to let the entire thing go (secular and Holy Hiphop) in order to walk in discipline.
Now this is my experience, therefore I’m not going to apply my situation every single person. But, I feel that in a lot of instances (not all), young Christian folk who support Christian Hip hop are ones who haven’t fully been delivered from the secular side, so they hold onto “Holy” hip hop in order to have “SOMETHING”.
I am going to list some guys for you truthofgod (and if you are really true then you will take a unbias examination of what I am presenting you) please evaluate their life and tell me what is wrong with it. Finally what is so repulsive to you about Hip Hop culture ie (break dancing, djing, rhyming, spoken word, etc
Flame - http://www.crossmoventrecords.com
Da Truth - http://www.crossmoventrecords.com
Deuce - http://www.crossmoventrecords.com
CM group - http://www.crossmovementrecords.com
Shai Linne - http://www.lampmode.com
Stephen the Levite - http://www.lampmode.com
Anyone on reach records - http://www.reachrecords.com (I know them personally was disipled with a couple of them)
You may want to check out an inner city discipleship program Reach Records started. http://www.reachlife.og. As I stated above some of these artist are graduates of seminary and some are currently attending. Some are married with children others have children on the way. They are Godly husbands, and fathers who are training their children to couteract and engage a postmodern culture. They have trained men to be disciplemakers in this pew potatoe church culture (some of these individuals have been reached through the music others not). So as I stated before, when you can find something wrong with their character then you can talk. If it is a personal conviction of yours that you are trying to push off then you are SINNING! You don’t have the liberty from the Lord to press your issues on others. So if there is something specific about these “hip hoppers” that you can isolate in their life as SIN then do it if not, please check your conviction at the door, because I thought this was a place of OBJECTIVE TRUTH!
Mr. Woods, first i’m very familiar with most of their sites, therefore i find no need to peruse it for information. Secondly, i don’t know how they are as husbands or fathers, and I never said anything about their character. My point being is that ALOT of holy hiphop is an immitation of the world. This is undeniable!
I never said that they are going to hell, nor did i say that they have character issues or are living a life of sin. I’m speaking about the entire thing in general. And usually the rationale is that we need something current in order to reach the kids, and that we need to get away from the OLD TIME tradition because the younger kids “ain’t feeling it”. Now here is a word to the wise, you don’t need hiphop or so-called holy hiphop to reach the youth. What you need to do is to preach the gospel with no comprimise. And have those that are mature in Christ to guide them in discipline.
Furthermore, i’m not “pushing” my conviction on anyone. I was just relaying my personal experience, i thought i expressed that point, (you may need to re-read my post over again). Nor, what i’m saying is Law branded on stone tablets so please dont put words into my mouth. I’m just expressing my opinion about the matter, and i’m positive that i’m not alone in my assessment no matter how offended you get personally.
Thank you, thank you, thank YOU!
Mr. Woods, can you explain to us in full detail what your relationship is to Reach Records?
You mention them an awful lot and have noted that people from your assembly are on that label. It would be nice to know how you fit into it all, in detail please.
I have friends that are on the label whom I love greatly and not because of their music but because when I came out of the Hyper Charismatic background they understood and helped me in developing a healthy and sound theological framework. Nothing more nothing less.
Thank you, I hope you don’t take offense that I asked.
Not at all.
IC,
NWA, LOL! Oh the early days of Dre. What next, Kanye West is the New example of Christianity. IC, Do you ever recall a segment on TBN where there were actually people endorsing Kanye West? I saw that and had to turn the television off. That was a few years ago when he came out with the “Jesus Walks” song. My my my how things have gone from Jesus Walks to a Goldigger. Its a shame to see so many people of God endorse blatant and obvious examples of heretical people. We have gone over this so many times here with the connection between Pimps and secular artists.
Kyle
A friend of mine bugged me till I purchased Kanye’s first CD. (I didn’t know what would be on it, or Kanye’s history with the reprobate thugs in Hip Hop, so I went into it blind to who he was.) His track “Jesus Walks” has some big theological errors, but I’m not wasting time on him. I mean by the time you get to that track and even after it you realize Jesus definitely is not walking anywhere near him.
But peddling Jesus pays these days.
As you can read in my previous post today’s or even yesterday’s Gospel music is just a form of expression. Since we have no mandates for acceptable gospel music, were only instructed to make a loud noise, and Hip Hop is pretty loud.
And to even consider singers on par with the good elder worthy of double honor which includes income via their “singing ministry” is not something I can find anywhere in scripture. In fact, I can’t find a verse that endorses paying a singer a dime for their song.
We’re not talking about elders, but singers and musicians.
I think we need to keep that in perspective here.
I say if they want to sing and accept freely given donations, just like a good elder should, fine. But even the good elder is supposed to strive to not be a burden. And whatever “honor” is given the good elder, the singer/musician should not expect more.
I wanted this below my comment that starts with “(Of course this all is just my opinion)”, but I selected the wrong reply link
.
Not only the music, but who are we performing with? That is the latter challenge.
RUN DMC “Down with the King” in the mid 90’s- was essentially videoed on the streets of NY with many artists who do not profess Christ.
This is a collaboration. Pete Rock, ONYX, and a host of other crude NY street rappers were involved in the overall album and project. Is that the example we are to follow? Collaboration?
Though I was in high school, I remember having the impression (when seeing the video) that I could be down with Christ and still hang out with friends whom don’t care for Christ and do whatever I wanted.
Nothing could be further from the truth.
Kirk Franklin - Same issue. Collaboration with secular artists. Is that Bible? Do we partner with those (willingly) that do not profess the name of Christ?
To what extent are we striving for what we ultimately want? Even to go so far as to compromise the name of Christ??
We cannot possibly connect these with existing in the world because in the situation of collaborating, we have a choice. That is the beauty of God. He gives us instructions and the option (grace) to follow.
2 Cor 6:14-15
Be ye not unequally yoked (joined, partnered) together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?
2 Cor 6:17
Wherefore COME OUT from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean [thing]; and I will receive you,
Why would I need to partner with what the Bible refers to as an infidel? Or an unclean thing? If I partner, I nullify God’s instruction through Paul and YOKE with him.
Yoke (BLB)
-”Fitted on the neck of oxen for the purpose of binding to them the traces by which they might draw the plough, etc. (Num 19:2 ; Deu 21:3). It was a curved piece of wood called _’ol_.”
So I become as one in the deeds of him WITH him. The saying is used metaphorically in that you would not tie two differing oxen together. The stronger one (Christian) would eventually wear down (and give in) as a result if the wear it puts upon him pulling the other and doing the work for the other oxen.
An impossibility to carry someone else’s yoke.
(Of course this all is just my opinion)
I think it all stared downhill the moment “Wings Over Jordan” got the very first BIG gospel music deal in 1938. Because they were the first to do it full time for a big music contract. (What was considered “big” back then that is.)
To me from there, many Gospel singers really got into the industry when they saw it as a means to make money. It went from ministry to industry (money), which has resulted in the mess of today. I know many gospel artists struggled and stuck with gospel rather than go pop, but still it seems to me that the whole thing has been to get BIG like we see of today’s gospel celebrity figures.
You know me. I just prefer people do ministry of whatever form without trying to set prices on their labor and accept freely given donations from saints. Call me crazy, but saints going to the same labels as secular artists with sometimes the same attorney as a secular artist to secure the highest paying deal like a secular artist, all looks more secular than a ministry effort to me. I can’t square it with the efforts of Jesus or the apostles.
Use other means to make money if you want to be rich. At least when someone sings pop, the entire world knows they are not trying to claim it’s all about Jesus.
IC,
Even before the “Wings of Jordan”, Thomas Dorsey was busy taking his ol’ blues songs, replacing the lyrics with Jesus-speak (while maintaining the juke-joint sound) and calling it “gospel” music. He just continued the work of Ira Sankey, but brought it to Black assemblies. Remember, they used to call him Georgia Tom in the juke-joint circles. . . and he formed a band for Ma Rainey, who was a known drunk and bisexual.
That trend continues today. These babes in the faith claim they are saved, then hook slide into the church with their worldly songs and change a few things to call it gospel, all the while mishandling Scripture along the way. One quality that musicians in the Old Testament like Asaph, Heman and Jeduthun had were they were skilled in handling Scripture. 1 Chron 25.
For some reason, hymns like “A Mighty Fortress Is Our God” and “O Sacred Head Now Wounded” don’t move us like they should. . . .
They move me TJM………
O sacred Head, now wounded, with grief and shame weighed down,
Now scornfully surrounded with thorns, Thine only crown;
O sacred Head, what glory, what bliss till now was Thine!
Yet, though despised and gory, I joy to call Thee mine.
What Thou, my Lord, hast suffered, was all for sinners’ gain;
Mine, mine was the transgression, but Thine the deadly pain.
Lo, here I fall, my Savior! ‘Tis I deserve Thy place;
Look on me with Thy favor, vouchsafe to me Thy grace.
Men mock and taunt and jeer Thee, Thou noble countenance,
Though mighty worlds shall fear Thee and flee before Thy glance.
How art thou pale with anguish, with sore abuse and scorn!
How doth Thy visage languish that once was bright as morn!
Now from Thy cheeks has vanished their color once so fair;
From Thy red lips is banished the splendor that was there.
Grim death, with cruel rigor, hath robbed Thee of Thy life;
Thus Thou hast lost Thy vigor, Thy strength in this sad strife.
My burden in Thy Passion, Lord, Thou hast borne for me,
For it was my transgression which brought this woe on Thee.
I cast me down before Thee, wrath were my rightful lot;
Have mercy, I implore Thee; Redeemer, spurn me not!
What language shall I borrow to thank Thee, dearest friend,
For this Thy dying sorrow, Thy pity without end?
O make me Thine forever, and should I fainting be,
Lord, let me never, never outlive my love to Thee.
My Shepherd, now receive me; my Guardian, own me Thine.
Great blessings Thou didst give me, O source of gifts divine.
Thy lips have often fed me with words of truth and love;
Thy Spirit oft hath led me to heavenly joys above.
Here I will stand beside Thee, from Thee I will not part;
O Savior, do not chide me! When breaks Thy loving heart,
When soul and body languish in death’s cold, cruel grasp,
Then, in Thy deepest anguish, Thee in mine arms I’ll clasp.
The joy can never be spoken, above all joys beside,
When in Thy body broken I thus with safety hide.
O Lord of Life, desiring Thy glory now to see,
Beside Thy cross expiring, I’d breathe my soul to Thee.
My Savior, be Thou near me when death is at my door;
Then let Thy presence cheer me, forsake me nevermore!
When soul and body languish, oh, leave me not alone,
But take away mine anguish by virtue of Thine own!
Be Thou my consolation, my shield when I must die;
Remind me of Thy passion when my last hour draws nigh.
Mine eyes shall then behold Thee, upon Thy cross shall dwell,
My heart by faith enfolds Thee. Who dieth thus dies well.
Thanks for the lyrics, GaryV. Great hymn.
paisano, it is evident that you are a God gifted lyricist. the last verse sums up the Christian’s life beautifully. he who dies in Christ, dies well- hallelujah!!!!
I wish I could rise to the heights of this hymn Mrs Mav…………unfortunately I’m consigned to ditties about the Pimps. (MN: But they’re inspired ditties. )
This wondrous piece was written by Bernard of Clairvaux in 1153.
oh, my mistake- i didn’t read the previous post, i thought that you, being the talented song writer that you are penned the words. it wouldn’t be far reaching (warm smile)
Awwwwww…………thank you both. I might get the nerve to post some of my poetry about Christ here someday. Better that than my TBN footage
I totally agree with you!
Msamu,
Are you taking a neutral stance on this issue because I hope not? Rev Run from RunDMC is a pimp who hangs out with Bishop Jordan. If you ever watched the reality show of so called “Rev” Run you will see that this man in no way espouses the true gospel. And as for Rev Run’s brother that is none other than Russell Simons. I hardly think that this family is Christian in any way. Now as for Kirk Franklin he is a TBN bootlicker of the highest order.
Kyle
OK, now will you just call yourself “Kyle” or something like that (we might already have another Kyle here), instead of being “Anonymous”?
In the “name” box above where you enter a comment, please provide a name for yourself.
IC,
I am the “Kyle” who is always posting here. I am the same Kyle who posted on your website. Some time back someone hijacked my name and started some Pro-Pimping. I by no means support any Pimps nor do I support errant doctrine. I consider myself conservative and reject hyper Pentecostalism. I would like to know who is coming here and hijacking are names so that we sow discord amongst ourselves. Whoever is doing this is creating a House divided. I hope Melvin looks at both the name and the e-mail to verify who is who. In fact some time ago a “Kyle” posted on here supporting Tonex. Definitely NOT me.
Kyle
(MN: Tell you what, I will do a bit of research and see if I can spot the perp. Usually, I can tell you folks apart by your writing. But I guess I have to be somewhat suspicious that some stealth comments are taking place. )
Oh, OK. You are right Kyle, some of the posts here are done with divisive intent.
I just hope “He” is not up to his “old tricks”. Some names and such have been suspicious to me as well.
OK…….I’ve come to hate not being straight up, and I got the DISTINCT impression that “He” was most likely an indirect reference to me (especially in light of my past actions and how indirect “hints” have happened before).
So, if you or anyone else suspects me, please speak DIRECTLY now……and if you think so, no……IT WASN’T ME.
As I’ve long tried to indicate, I REPENTED…… but regarding this new perp’s M.O, truly sorrowful my actions left a bad legacy others now follow…
Apologies if off saying this…….but if accurate, how long must the Stigma on me remain?
Yes. Before and after you admitted … the suspicion was there. Of course, repentance brings forgiveness, but not blind stupidity to not inquire again.
So if it isn’t you, then good. Regardless of what anyone thinks (including myself), let your repentance be just that … and let it be.
It will go away.
Point taken, Brah….
Still, It’d bless me if you’d please avoid “hinting” n’ be STRAIGH UP when bothered (Ephesians 4:25) or privately email me (Ggreaves103@comcast.net ).
Given my past, figures this “perp” would have you distrusting of me….and though sadden by it, can’t blame you for that.
(MN: “Sin mars……take a while to go”)
But to me, “Hint” felt more so like veiled accusation (assumption) rather than humble investigation……
And, as Ms. Mavs’ done with me, I’d hope we be encouraging in giving benefit of doubt n’ believing the best of individuals after repentance, regardless of mistakes (I Corinthians 13:7)….
(MN: You’re starting to sound whiney. You did what you did. Now live with the results. But don’t make us live with them with you. Buck up. Be a man. Get on with your postings and stop trying to convince anyone of anything about you. Who cares what someone might, maybe have meant by a word? Who cares what they might think. You’re not going to change it by writing and telling us again how much you regret what you did. And please…don’t respond to this comment, it would just continue the whining. )
Mrs. Mav,
Forgive me if I used your name to support anything you believed you weren’t about regarding me.
Let me know if I’m off, and I pray your hands are recovering by the way (I noticed the lengths of your posts were getting longer concerning the “Apostasy” debate with IC and I remember you once said it hurts for you to type a lot. Hope it’s changed for you, Sis….lol, lol, lol).
Grid, appreciate the feedback from ya. Again, your points are well-taken…..and I hope mine have been as well. Much love, Brah….
Peace.
Cool….Then would you please mind DELETING THESE TWO COMMENTS I gave last night, sir ?
Whinny wasn’t what I had in mind when writing, but if that’s how it came off, no need wasting bandwith with it. So again please delete the two comments I gave so I could use them for things more noteworthy?
Thankx….
Just trying again, to see if you’d please consider deleting the above comments so I could’d use them for other things. Is this possible?
(MN: Being gracious as I am, I won’t count them toward your quota. I won’t even count the last two.)
To Kyle, I am not taking a neutral stance, my stand is clear; the debate I think was about hip-hop and its impact on the body. Again for the record there’s no such thing as gospel music so what ever your heart wants to offer is fine with me, hip-hop, jazz, and rock, classical the issue is as always the person or persons offering up the praise. Look your and adult you pay your bill’s (I hope) lead your family, go to work, most of us are responsible in our daily life’s, why is it when it come to Christian issues we become slack in our reasonability’s. The people you’re talking about just happen to be involved in hip-hop are they believers? Well let’s just say I wouldn’t worship with them. Each of use must exercise common sense and be responsible; labeling hip-hop as divisive is a general observation, I’m sure there’re true believers that express their gratitude for our Lord in the form of song, that song just happens to be hip-hop. Better to focus on the real enemy which is not Hip-Hop it’s the Flesh (Sin) and the rejection of Christ.
msamu,
Yes I pay my bills. I happen to be very responsible. Please avoid the cheap shots and stick to the topic at hand. Now as for Christian Hip hop I was addressing “secular” artists who “claim” Jesus yet “live” like the world. My slant on Gospel music is pretty nuetral. I personally don’t listen to any of it therefore I have no dog in this fight. As I said I was addressing Run DMC and the like.
Kyle
to Kyle
First of all the reference to paying your bills was not directed for say at you it was a general statement, secondly the word states, “you will know them by the fruit they bear” if the fruit is of the world well then their of the world, remember it is written many will call him Lord but their heart is far away. Implying Hip-Hop is divisive is misleading and what’s worse is when we also imply that the Run Dmc’s of the world are Christians and then are upset that their not living up to biblical standards, the fact that they are not standard bearers is testimony that they are of the world.
Msamu,
I have to disagree with your statement that “gospel” music is something that African-Americans can call their own. Ira Sankey is more widely considered the pioneer of the gospel song. Thomas Dorsey just took Sankey’s writing style (short stanzas and catchy hooks) and applied blues music to it. Sankey was more of a ragtime player.
TO TJM
The point I was attempting to convey is their’s no such thing as spiritual music, what’s produced is produced by the flesh we can call it what we please, hip-hop is not the problem nor should it be the focus, I believe the bible call’s it sin. What you’re saying is a half a dozen in one hand and a dozen in the other, it’s important that we focus not on the symptoms but on the disease.
Thanks for the clarification, Msamu. I didn’t get that from your original post, but I get your point now.
TJM, anytime
Thank you brother.
My Brother Melvin,
Thanks for allowing me to post. This thing with Craig Lewis is not that deep! Like all issues in the body of Christ, we tend to take a Pharasaical approach in the way we deal with things. 1. We believe that because we are christians, we have the right to judge holiness. 2. We begin to build our case through scripture on why we are to judge, but often negate the scriptures that tell us not to judge. 3. After implementing number 2, we are now less capable of rightly dividing the word of God in spirit and in truth. By now this has become a ministry of sorts, and because we have a public platform to express our dislikes, we crucify anything in our path that opposes our religious harmony.
I wish more christians would take a stand against such industries like the internet, television, or movies. These three have done, are doing, and will continue to do more ungodliness than hiphop ever will. By no means do I agree with all hiphop. If the church can overlook the evil of the “Big 3″ to spread the gospel of Jesus Christ, why should an gospel mc be denied the same freedom in the music industry?
Before you stone me with scriptures, remember that gospel music is only about 75 years old. How were we worshipping God before then? That I believe is the question!
” I’ve been kicked out some of the best churches in America.” Thomas Dorsey
Father of Gospel Music-
As to your 3 points BrothersKeeper.
1) We’re not judging holiness. We’re judging doctrine. Some here may have strayed from that, but I don’t see that Melvin has.
2)There are no Scriptures which tell us not to judge doctrine or behavior. None. In fact, it’s quite the opposite.
3)Unless one properly understands number 2, one is prone to making the erroneous statements you just made in number 3.
Also, the internet, TV, and movies do not CLAIM to be God’s instruments to spread the Gospel. They do not CLAIM to be hearing from God. They do not CLAIM authority over His flock. We are to judge those WITHIN the Body, not those WITHOUT the Body.
1Cr 5:9 ¶ I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
1Cr 5:10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
1Cr 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
1Cr 5:12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
1Cr 5:13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.
Rom 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
(GV) Can’t do that without judging their doctrine.
Eph 4:14 That we [henceforth] be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, [and] cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
(GV) Can’t do that without judging doctrine.
1Ti 1:3 As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine
(GV) Can’t do that without judging their doctrine.
All the references to NOT judging in the Body relate to the heart,or to questions of conscience, not doctrine. There are many more that further illustrate this, but I believe these suffice.
I just want to be fair with this………….Melvin’s problem with G Craige isn’t about his stance on HHH. It’s about doctrine, which we are commanded to judge, and the public marking and avoidance of those whose doctrine is contrary to the Word, which we are also commanded to do.
My Brother GaryV,
I’m confused. Are you defending Craig Lewis or Melvin? Speaking of erroneous, try keeping 1 Corinth 5; 9-13 in context. As a matter of fact, all the scriptures you listed.
For the sake of debate, what do you do if Craig Lewis or these “pimps” never change? Can you cast them out of the body of Christ? Do you hold that authority? These were physical locations that Paul was instructing those in leadership on how to deal with those in sin. The word of God is very clear on who will judge the body of Christ.
Are you a pastor?
(MN: Last time - I don’t want to get into a debate about the gifts. It’s not going anywhere. Mr. Lewis and I disagree on the issue. I think he is wrong. We can, PERHAPS, devote an entire posting to the issue. However, even then I would not look forward to much light on the matter. )
Please don’t make assertions without the courtesy of detailing and proving them Biblically. WHERE did I use Scripture out of context??
Are you saying that the commands to judge doctrine, assess the doctrine of others, and mark those whose doctrine is destructive was ONLY for the pastors of the church to which Paul was writing?? Please brother……….
Let’s follow that through, shall we?? I guess that the teaching in the Book of Romans was only for first century Roman Christians as well, right?? The commands of church order in Corinthians only apply to first century Corinthian Christians?? And of course, the teachings of Christ only applied to the 12 when He addressed them, and to the gathered crowd alone when He addressed THEM??
I imagine that Paul would be relieved to know that the principles of dealing with sin and heretical doctrine he laid out by the Holy Spirit no longer apply. Tell me…………is it because we stopped sinning, or because we don’t have anyone with aberrant doctrine anymore?? Or is it because the Holy Spirit needed to fill in some pages in Scripture, so He told these tales about sin, and heresy, and church government, and salvation, and redemption, and holiness, and regeneration, and eternal life, and doctrine, and judgement just so WE could read them and say “BOY……….THEY sure were screwed up back THERE!! Glad none of that applies to US. Good thing the Bible’s teachings are not relevant ANYMORE.”
Either take the verses and exegete them to prove your claims, or don’t make the claims to begin with. It don’t fly here.
PS…………..WHO ever cast ANYONE out of the Body of Christ?? Are you referring to Paul’s statement here??
1Cr 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Cr 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
If not, what verses ARE you referencing?? I deny even the PREMISE you set forth. Neither Paul, nor Peter, nor John, nor ANYONE ELSE EVER cast ANYONE out of the Body of Christ.
I’m looking forward to THAT explanation as well.
Sharpen your pencil Cubby…………I’m waiting.
From My Brother’s Keeper:
“1. We believe that because we are christians, we have the right to judge holiness.
2. We begin to build our case through scripture on why we are to judge, but often negate the scriptures that tell us not to judge.
3. After implementing number 2, we are now less capable of rightly dividing the word of God in spirit and in truth. By now this has become a ministry of sorts, and because we have a public platform to express our dislikes, we crucify anything in our path that opposes our religious harmony.
And this is what I feel Brother Craig is doing. Crucifying everything in his path that opposes his bent on things.
Like someone said before TV, Hip hop, Drugs, Internet, Pornography, etc, are not making people sin. It is their sinful hearts, that turn them to things/practices that are not godly.
Will I listen to Jazz, Hiphop, R&B, Watch Movies, use the Internet, watch Secular TV Programs, go to secular concerts? Certainly!
Will I listen to music, watch movies, participate in anything that glorifies Satan and Blasphemes God? Heck NO!
The inevitable question is “because something is secular, does that mean it is a sin”. I certainly don’t think so. Now if your “conscience” is troubled then you shouldn’t engage in it. I have the liberty in Christ. Now if my brother is offended, or feels that what I’m doing could cause him to sin, then I should stop listening to my music, watching movies that he feels are sinful for “his” sake.
This does not mean I should go and abuse my freedom, by indulging in “sinful” practices. According to Romans 14, and 15. From what I have seen from G Craige Lewis, he does not believe in Christian Liberty, I see him as one who practices salvation by works and not grace. eg He does not believe a christian should listen or dance to secular music, he believes that you can’t wear RocaWear, Sean John etc. He does not believe men can wear earrings, or can have dreadlocks, or even wear pink. I’m not suprised that he believes these things since he is a “Hyper-pentecostal” who practices salvation by works and not by grace. He takes delight in attacking Holy Hip hop, but he produces christian hip hop. He also affirms speaking in tongues, word faith heresy, women pastors etc.
I Read the post and I wonder; Am I the only individual seeking truth??? All Music is NOT good music..Why reduce the WORD (scripture) to some sub-human level to any extent. The consistant blasphemous teachings of the World is going forth The TRUTH is at stake and to see folks defend Hip Hop and other Genres is repulsive Where is the common sense here?
I’m gonna say something now where I know you brothers and sisters out there will eat me up; but after a period of study, I’m persuaded that a lot of so called “Black Music” is not acceptable for worship. Heavy I know, but before you castigate me here’s a challenge. Study the scriptual use of the word “melody” and compare this with the emphasis of rhythm in todays music. Those of you into music take away the drum set and the rhythm guitar and listen carefully to the sound. As I said study before you answer me.
(MN: That doesn’t work. Put the results of your study out here first. Then let’s talk. Give us your understanding the of the Scripturual use of the word “melody.” )
“Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord”
Question: Why did the Holy Spirit inspire the writer to say “melody” rather than, “Hey, Bro’ let’s make a beat in our hearts to the Lord” I do not believe the use of the word melody is by chance. A quick study of the word “melody” (in simplified terms) will reveal that it could be defined as the tune and is the main or one of the main components of music. Some people give about 5 main components for music but the top 3 are usually melody, rhythm and harmony. Problems arise when one component (usually the rhythm) is over emphasized. Another word for rhythm is the “Beast” (oops, that should be “beat”). Now, it is a FACT that the vast majority of modern music including CCM is driven by yes, the beat or rhythm. Being a former lover of reggae, I know what a strong rhythm does. Pretty up the language if you wish, but all this music does is appeal to the flesh and does not glorify God; whether you call it holy Hip Hop or Rap. I have seen churches fall into foolishness when they introduce strong rhythm inducing instruments like the drum and rhythm guitar. This “rhythm” argument is just one of many reasons why I reject Hip Hop. In reply don’t eat me, try feasting on the Word of God.
(MN: Other than the quote from Ephesians, I don’t see any Word to feast on. Yes it says “melody.” Now you have to expand on that. That which you provided is simply a lot of statements and opinions, unsupported by Scripture.
I take it you think Baroque music and Renaissance music fall in with Hip Hop. They have strong beats and rhythms. And right now I’m listening to “Sleeping Beauty” by Tchaikovsky. It has quite a beat to it. Let me guess - it’s demonic and we should not listen to it because it appeals to the flesh. In fact, I guess we should get rid of all waltzes since by definition they have a strong beat.
John K. Jenkins, the pastor of First Baptist Church of Glenarden gave a really bad Bible study one time when he taught us how to tell Godly music from ungodly music. He chased down exactly what you are saying. I think his went something like:
1. Melody appeals to the spirit or soul (no Biblical support for saying this)
2. Rhythm appeals to the mind (again no Biblical support for saying this)
3. Beat appeals to the flesh (still no Biblical support for it)
Therefore, he pontificated, Godly music should not have an over-emphasis on the beat. (Still no Biblical reference.)
WAIT!!!! John, is that you!?!? )
Judging by some of your previous responses I can see you’re an intelligent man so I’ll ignore the flippancy and take this to be a little slip. I’ll respond later.
What is he trying to say here? That a melody doesn’t have a beat? Too funny, and completely uninformed, no offense (intended).
When I sing a melody, you can STILL feel the beat underneath it. All music has a beat. Whether you play the rhythm with drums or not, it still has a beat.
This is splitting hairs. Why don’t you just say sing a capella? You’ll still have a beat though. It’ll just be implied. LOL.
It’s interesting how one or two postings go down the road of oh , you’re splitting hairs or oh , where is that in the Bible? It reminds me of Charismatic friends who say “Tell me where the Bible says that the gifts will cease or tongue speaking is not for modern days?” Yes, you fall into the same trap, what your reply amounts to is that you want a one word or one verse answer on the issue of contemporary music in church. If you take that line then a simple retort would be “WHERE IN THE BIBLE DOES IT SAY WE CAN PLAY HIP HOP IN CHURCH?” You’ve made those who stand by more traditional ways assume they should defend their position whereas the onus should be on the advocates of the new way to justify theirs. It is clear that for a proper answer we need an in depth analysis of scripture, because there is no one verse answer - even if it means we split hairs. Red herring arguments comparing Baroque to Hip Hop won’t suffice. If you seriously believe the rhythm behind Bach’s Brandenburg concertos are of the same ilk as your regular Hip Hopper then I really can’t reason with you. I explained that modern music often is “driven by rhythm” I emphasised “rhythm driving music” rather than being a component. I never (in response to Danny) said melody did not have a beat. With respect Melvin, you simply critiqued John Jenkins , not me. I like your site but your straw man response tells me that even a reformed intelligent believer like you, still has sacred cows that we can’t touch. Reformation for me is to challenge everything I hold dear , including heavy rhythmical music. I’m not going to write a thesis for a blog. If readers are serious about finding out what the Bible teaches on music I recommend they read “Why I left the Contemporary Christian Music Movement” by Dan Lucarini. It covers ALL the issues raised in recent postings.
(MN: I’m not looking for a one liner defense. I am in fact, asking you to present the line upon line support for what I think is your position. You, I believe it was you, started the discussion by telling people to look at Melody and do a study. I have replied by saying “give us the results of your study.” When you say something about rhythm, develop from Scripture support for your statements.
As I said earlier, John K. Jenkins, the pastor of First Baptist Church of Glenarden, gave a “lesson” and said many of the things you are saying. He couldn’t support the concepts from Scripture. His only defense was “I’ve been ministering from 25 years…blah, blah, blah.” So far, you have done no better, except your put-offs have been a little more subtle.
Develop a defense for what I think is your position from Scripture. I wouldn’t expect it to be a one liner any more than I would expect support for the concept of the Trinity, Eternal Security, or Dispensationalism to be a one liner. No one is asking you to write a thesis. But coming here and making unsubstanitated statements doesn’t work either. Perhaps you could come to some middle ground? )
Point taken, give me some time and I’ll respond.
Charlz, what point are you trying to make?
I am saying the defensive responses make little sense to me…I understand and agree with mel that G. Craige “is over the top,” but the term “expression” (blasphemy is blasphemy) is used too loosely and before that DVD came out i realized that worldly Nonsense gets the best of the saints who defend it …(people go crazy saying how right it is)thats all i am saying “practice” common sense if it what it is…then does your hearts discern it?
Still don’t understand what your trying to say.
charlz said: I understand and agree with mel that G. Craige “is over the top,” but the term “expression” (blasphemy is blasphemy) is used too loosely and before that DVD came out i realized that worldly Nonsense gets the best of the saints who defend it”. No sense whatsoever.
charlz also said: …(people go crazy saying how right it is)thats all i am saying “practice” common sense if it what it is…then does your hearts discern it? What are you trying to say.
I think you should type slowly, and do a grammar check. I honestly don’t know what your saying. Can anybody help me understand?
boardmanudobi,
forgive me for being so vague…..and yes i can type pretty good. Brother D said it best below your response. Again my apologies for the misunderstanding.
We have spent a lot of time lately defending or promoting certain genres of music as if music itself is what is important. I am not a member of the Church of Christ so this is not anything against music or instruments but I do have this statement to offer.
THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS GOSPEL MUSIC. (MN: Thank you. ) THE GOSPEL IS TO BE PREACHED NOT SUNG. THERE IS NO RECORD OF THE APOSTLES SINGING WHEN THEY WENT OUT TO SPREAD THE GOSPEL. IN FACT, THE THINGS THEY SAID AND WROTE WENT INTO A BIBLE NOT A HYMN BOOK.
Now before anyone reminds me of the Moses’ Song, the 150 Psalms and the Song of Solomon and any other lyrics contained in scripture, let me remind you that there are no DIVINELY INSPIRED musicians penning verse today!
In Acts 16 Paul and Silas prayed and sung to hymns God. Let’s keep in mind they sung to God, not to fellow inmates that were unbelievers. The other inmates just happened to overhear. It’s recorded in that chapter that Paul ministered in words, not a song to tell someone about Jesus. And he didn’t say the words with a beat track in the background.
Ephesians 5 and Colossians 3 note that saints are to sing and minister with hymns and spiritual songs to each other.
Singing as a “ministry” is between saints.
I say it should not be used in ministry to lost souls, not just because there is no biblical foundation, but also because we don’t want to lull anyone into the most important decision of their life. We want them to accept Jesus of a 100% sound mind, not a sweet song that moved them emotionally and not a moving beat track either.
Can I ask you a question IC? So is it not cool to preach the Gospel over the internet? What about those sites that ask you “Do you want to know more about Jesus”? There are no prohibitions in scripture that prevent artist from singing the Gospel, as there is no prohibition for tracts, billboards or any other type of medium.
You guys are being very legalistic in your approach to this. If there is no prohibition, then I have the liberty to do it, if there is a mandate then I have to do it. We are told to preach the Gospel not how. Unless you can point out scriptures that explicitly prohibts a certain act then you HAVE to chalk it up as an issue of liberty. Melvin let me know if I am wrong here. This is not in reference to Hip Hop as evangelism at all but to all of the responses that say there is no such thing as Gospel Music, or certain ways to do church.
I will say again as I have said earlier. There is either law or liberty (other than personal conviction, which can not be pushed on another believer). In the NT we have laws laid out for us to follow, don’t start adding to scripture (as G Craig does, that brother will preach about tattoos and earings but what about the prohibitions on when you can and can’t have intamicy with your wife, how about the other 500 plus laws laid out in the OT) because when you do you have crossed the line and a lot of you on hear has done such a thing.
I think we have an obligation to stay true to scripture (Sola Scriptura) or just be considered a Charismatic, that is what is going on here.
Mr. Woods, maybe you should trace the discussion in this section of comments again. Others are saying there is NO SUCH THING as “gospel music” and Melvin has already said that he agrees with that assertion. I’ve presented scripture that shows ministry via songs is something done between saints, which supports that there is a use for gospel in the form of music, gospel music. I simply point out that gospel music is a ministry between saints, but unbelievers should be spoken the gospel or even written it, scripture is written. Just like writings on the internet or in a tract or in a book. It’s best not to try reaching unbelievers with various songs and seeking that they repent based on music.
Mr. Woods, your frequent claims to “liberty” for all that is countered could be used by those who do the “holy laughter” bit. They could claim to be laughing and while doing that talking and ministering about Jesus too. It’s what one of the nuts doing it does. Please minister to unbelievers with your words to help them see clearly without the lulls of music, laughter or whatever to entice their emotions. Minister to unbelievers with words, minus the beat track, so they can make the decision with a sound mind.
The burden of proof is not on me to provide a specific prohibition. The burden is on you to ensure you’ve presented the gospel to unbelievers without playing on emotions.
It would be of no benefit to discuss this IC I have come to the conclusion that you pick and choose whatever you want to make your point. It has been fun God bless.
You know let me leave you with this IC. Once again you still never answer my claim. We have two choices Prohibition and mandates. By the way Holy Laughter would conflict with 1 Cor 14 so there is a prohibition to disrupt order within the body. And if Holy Laughter is considered praise it would highly disrupted to the non-beliver and to the entire congregation. So hope that answers your question. you know you go to extremes a lot to make your point. I guess that is where the Conservative comes in right?
And Mr. Woods, here’s a idea, tell me what you think?
What if I tell unbelievers about Jesus and tell them I’ll give them $50 if they accept Him as their Lord and Savior?
Nothing in scripture explicitly prohibits that, does it? Is it a cool idea? Why or why not?
By the way no disrespect with the Conservative tid bit. Love you brothers. I guess as Melvin so clearly conveyed we are not going to agree with this issue. I respect your stance so as Deb D’s TruthofGod, and Prayerwarrior. I do think I have gained some good insight on why there is such a wide chasm between my generation of belivers and yours. My prayer is that we would not have to divide over what I consider a non-essential. As someone stated earlier music is one of the non-factors when it comes to Church gatherings although the Church has made it an intricate part of corporate worship. There are definitely some things my generation needs to be sensitive too, because the excercise of that liberty is causing a lack of respect from you all;however, I also believe we deserve a little more respect than what is given. God bless you all and contine to expose those who preach another Gospel. Love you.
Mr. Woods, there is not really a “generational gap” here. I grew up with Hip Hop being the main thing kids played too. We probably are not very different in age. I’m 35.
Regarding “holy laughter” for those doing it there is no disruption. It is the order of their assembly. It starts with the man in the pulpit doing it.
So can I start trying my $50 trick on unbelievers?
Mr. Woods, there is not really a “generational gap” here. I grew up with Hip Hop being the main thing kids played too. We probably are not very different in age. I’m 35.
Regarding “holy laughter” for those doing it there is no disruption in their eyes. It is the order of their assembly. It starts with the man in the pulpit doing it.
You speak of legalism versus liberty as if we are trying to say you are not a Christian if you do try to reach unbelievers via music. We are saying it is an inappropriate method and plays on emotions. We’re not saying people burn in hell for being devoted to trying to do it via music, but you are winning people with your style more than your substance. Just like with the “Hip Hop Church” in NY. Some kids refuse to go to any other “church”. In a case like that, who is “god”. It seems to me some have made the style of Hip Hop their god. This is why it is best to speak the ministry to unbelievers and let the weight of the Gospel either bring them to repentance or they can go home and play another Hip Hop song of their choice.
When it comes to the unbeliver, leave the organ during sermons alone, no beat tracks and songs when ministering the Gospel to the unbelievers. Play the music and songs as ministry to saints who already accepted Jesus with a clear mind.
So can I start trying my $50 trick on unbelievers?
Mr. Woods, I can’t speak for everyone else, but i’m not that old at all, i’m still pretty young. So i’m not sure if that generational chasm applies to me. Furthermore, you are correct we do have liberty in Christ but everything isn’t necessarily expedient. Personally, i’m not making this a heaven or hell issue so please don’t take what i’m saying out of context.
And how is this a generational issue? This is not even about HHH versus any other style. We are talking about music in general. I say this for any form of music being used to minister gospel towards unbelievers. Music in the church didn’t start with Hip Hoppers.
(MN: ACTUALLY, we were discussing Mr. Lewis. And as y’all are want to do, it wandered on into that forbidden territory - Hip Hop.
But at least it’s interesting to see how all of you view liberty vs culture vs holiness, etc. )
Oh yea, that guy Lewis
.
In this particular side-bar, it’s not really at all Hip Hop/HHH that is the issue. It is how music is used in relationship to the gospel, without respect to any style at all. Because this one (side bar) started with Brother D asking about “gospel music”.
So some say there is “no such thing” as “gospel music”.
I say there is a such thing as “gospel music”, but should be used for ministry to saints, not unbelievers. Keep in mind the scripture I cited noted in Colossians 3:16 (ESV)
Paul and Timothy were talking about how saints should treat each other. Teaching and admonishing each other in all wisdom, singing, all with thankfulness. This is how we should treat each other. So I say the singing is part of our thanksgiving to God and relationship with each other. Between saints the teaching, admonishing and singing is a form of ministry between ourselves, giving God the glory in all of it.
What is a “hymn” or “spiritual song”? I say it has to reflect the Gospel. So I have no problem with the term “gospel music”.
Songs were not how Paul or Peter went into areas full of unbelievers to minister, it’s a form of worship between Christians.
Of course I have my own biases regarding style, for conscience sake, but no there is no recommended style given.
Then, Mr. Woods jumped in. With the accusations of “legalism” and so on… Then some of us tried to clarify and explain why ministry to unbelievers is not done via music.
OK, that’s the recap
.
IC:”In this particular side-bar, it’s not really at all Hip Hop/HHH that is the issue. It is how music is used in relationship to the gospel, without respect to any style at all. Because this one (side bar) started with Brother D asking about “gospel music”.
So some say there is “no such thing” as “gospel music”.
I say there is a such thing as “gospel music”, but should be used for ministry to saints, not unbelievers. Keep in mind the scripture I cited noted in Colossians 3:16 (ESV)
Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom, singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, with thankfulness in your hearts to God.”
I just want to clarify that i have no issue with singing or singing of hymns in the church assembly. The problem that i do have is that I find alot of people substituting the singing in place of preaching of the Word. This is partly why you can go to most churches and have 2 1/2 hrs of “prais e and worship” and then maybe 45 mins. of actual preaching. Yet for them, they recieved the Word for 3hrs and 15mins., do you see what i mean?
TOG, we are in total agreement.
This is where I repeat myself, this is what I’ve been trying to get folks to understand with this post.
Mr. Woods,
Did I read your statement correctly? “We are told to preach the gospel not how”, is that what you typed? Was that an accident? If not, then please tell me where preaching is ever referred to or equated with singing?
Paul told Timothy in II Timothy 4:2 to “Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine” (KJV). Now Mr. Sola Scriptura which translation are you reading from that says to “Sing the word. Be instant in tune, out of tune; refrain, chorus, stanza, with all long notes and downbeat”? Legalistic? No! Literate? YES! No liberty grants any of us the right to ignore clear instruction from God’s word. I’ll state it again…THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS GOSPEL MUSIC ONLY GOSPEL PREACHING! Now you have liberty to obey God’s word!
Lawrence. We were talking about mediums not doctrine. So your argument is with yourself. I believe you are trying to sound intelligent, but doesn’t work hee.
Mr. Woods,
Preaching is the medium. Preaching itself is not a doctrine. So my argument is with YOU, the Hip Hop Worshipper who can not think clearly enough to see that because you have made a god out of the music just about every statement you have made is riddled with ambiguity!
Now let’s go over a few examples of the mediums by which we were commanded to bring the gospel to the world and the way in which it was carried out by the Apostles and followers of Christ:
1. Matthew 28:18-20 Here we have a command from the mouth of Jesus Himself in which he implores the Apostles with the words “teach and teaching”. Notice, no mentioning of singing.
2. Acts 5:42 After receiving stripes from the council we find the Apostles being recorded as having “daily in the temple, and in every house” teaching and preaching Jesus Christ. Can you tell me what hymn they sung? I didn’t think so.
3. I Corinthians 14:19 Here Paul says that the best he can do is to “teach” in few words with an understanding than to speak many words without it. I’d rather hear it right the first time than to have to rewind the tape or replay the track on the cd. By the way, aren’t you against “whooping” style preaching for the same reason?
4. I Timothy 4:11 Paul tells Timothy to “command and teach”. NO singing yet.
5. I Timothy 6:2 This time it’s “teach and exhort”. Still no singing…, hmmm?
6. II Timothy 2:2 Paul tells Timothy to “commit” or entrust what he has been instructed to faithful men so that they can “teach others also”. This commandment to sing the gospel is mighty elusive, wouldn’t you say?
Now, it seems that with just this small amount of evidence that I don’t need a “thou shalt not sing the gospel” scripture when the evidence that preaching and teaching is EXPLICITLY admonished and therefore preferred.
With regards to singing look up these scriptures: Exodus 15:1,21; Judges 5:3; I Chronicles 16:9; Psalm 13:6, 30:4, 66:2, 104:33, 105:2; Isaiah 12:5; I Corinthians 14:15…These are all instructions on who to sing to (God), what to sing about (His wondrous works), and how to sing (with the spirit and with an understanding). Even the Ephesians 5:19 and Colossians 3:16 references that IC made actually and specifically say that the Lord is the one whom we are to glorify with our singing. (I’m not saying IC was wrong just pointing out that both scriptures end with the phrase “to the Lord”) NO MENTION OF THE PRESENTATION OF THE GOSPEL OF SALVATION THROUGH SINGING IN THE ENTIRE BIBLE! SOLA SCRIPTURA INDEED!
Now whether or not what I have presented is intelligent enough is for you to determine. However, if I were you, I would focus on whether or not I was correct in what I presented. If you would pardon the pun, I think it’s time for you to come out of the Woods!
Thanks for the insight. I will take this into consideration. Have a good day.
BDL, I feel your exposition of scripture regarding this was exceptional.
Brother Woods, Let me elaborate on something here. I asked the question in an earlier post and I believe no one has answered. That question was: Can anybody tell me what exactly IS gospel music. I am starting to believe that it is a label the man put on music just as he did pop(popular, which is basically what the majority is listening to) or rhythm and blues(which that name alone befuddles me because I thought all music had rhythm). Now the question is this: Does God call all who he gave the gift of song to sing “gospel” music or does music as does anything else we do, should give glory to God? I find nothing wrong with the song by Luther Vandross for example: “Here and Now.” It is talking about the vow that a man is making to his wife to be. Does God honor/require a vow when one gets married? My problem is the motive why we have to add the word “Christian” to certain occupations(ie christian artist) without adding it to all occupations. What is a christian Customer service rep, dentist, doctor, lawyer, waiter/waitress, construction worker and the likes. I will answer that for you, IT IS A PERSON WHO DOES HIS JOB AS UNTO GOD AND NOT MAN. His work and lifestyle honors God. So if I were a “secular” recording artist who happens to be a christian, my songs would honor God. I would not sing about explicit sex, drugs, alcohol, immoral behavior, adultry, fornication, etc. Yes, there are secular songs that honor God as well as “Christian’ song that dishonor God.
I personally do not trust patronize occupations that places the word “christian” in front of it. Why? Because you actions(work) should speak for itself and I should not employ you becuase you SAY you are christian. I don’t know is anyone has noticed this, but the World has figured out this concept and SAY they are christian just to reel in extra business just as the “will work for food” people on the side of the road has figured out that if they stand near the side of the road on SUNDAYS (for the typical christian) and SATURDAYS( for 7th Day adventists christians) and add the words “GOD BLESS” to their signs.
Comments?(MN: You don’t have to ask for comments. If people are interested, they will comment abundantly. )
I didn’t know singing was one of the Gifts of the Holy Spirit. I guess you found the 3 letter to the Corinthians.
Aljonathan is close to expressing some of the reasons (those are some of my reasons) I’m against any church assembly being used for marketing purposes, even after the assembly ends and people are trying to walk to their car and go home.
very good Mr. Woods; you have excellent discernment
Bro. lawrence, i mentioned that same point on a few occasions a while back. You are correct, the Gospel is to be preached, studied, and exhorted from scripture. Singing, does not qualify as “ministry” of the Gospel. Not to say that people shouldn’t sing about the goodness of God, but singing so-called “Gospel music” isn’t witnessing or ministry. And when you evaluate, especially the music of today, its really more about entertainment than anything else.
To Bro Lawrence D,Your post it’s very simple an straight to the point.That’s why have of the time we miss stuff it’s to simple for us, we need to make it
confusing.
Melvin,
Since you already closed the post on, “You might be gettin Pimped” I will have to ask the question here. Since there are a lot of good ones are you going to just pick one or a top three or even better the famous top ten list?
Kyle
(MN: The plan changed a bit. I will pick what I consider the top ten and allow you to vote on them to decide on the best one. That way, I can only be accused of playing partial favorites if one of the more vocal contributors wins.
The poll should go up on Monday morning or at least sometime around noon. )
Melvin,
WOW! letting others decide. I guess your leaning towards the “benevolent” side of Benevolent Dictator LOL!
Kyle
(MN: This time. But don’t get used to it. )
to melville and all the dads: happy father’s day and have a wonderful day in the Lord. (warm smile)
ps. mel, i left a chocolate cake for you in the vestibule along w/ a love offering. but of course, you know this has nothing to do w/ your choosing the top 10 posts.
Mrs. Mav, between the chocolate cake in the vestibule and the subliminal messages(gomavgomavgomav), you are treading on thin ice…now, let me swallow this Haterade(LOL)
hmmpf! i don’t even know what your talking about. i happen to know that melville likes chocolate cake, and i just wanted to show my gratitude for all the times he let me post on his website. it’s not like i was trying to bribe him or anything. so please do drink up.