(MN: I claim that John the Magnificent invites in people to preach (and compensates them for their preaching) who deny the Jesus of the Bible. No one accused Jesus of that. By they way: did Johninvite people in who preach another Gospel? Yes he did. We could start with Charles Ellis and move down from there. Is anything I say the posting untrue? No. Are the things the Pharisees said about Jesus untrue? Yes. As much as you may want to compare John to Jesus, the comparison falls completely flat. I might just as easily say that the things you say about me demonstrate that I am doing God’s will. But at least I’m not spewign false doctrine or being mentored (T. Dexter Jakes) by a man who is unwilling to stand on his Oneness beliefs. )

By your doing so, is simply a confirmation that this pastor is walking with God (e.g. he suffers the same persecution).

(MN: Red herring. He is not being persecuted. The things he says are being compared to what the Scriptures say. That is not persecution. Or are you saying Paul told the Bereans to persecute him by checking the Scriptures to see if the things he was saying were so? )

In terms of judging divorce, it’s no sin different from any other sin and God forgives sin when we repent. It is impossible for man to forgive anyone on their own. Instead, they need the Holy Spirit to help them forgive themselves and others and to keep them from bringing up past sins.

(MN: I must admit I have no idea what you are talking about here. I don’t recall discussing divorce at all in the article. Maybe you could clarifty. )

Further, why is it that you think you’re more educated than those at fbcg?

(MN: Red herring. It isn’t about education. It’s about being faithful to Scripute. )

Is your goal to demean a large group of people you don’t know?

(MN: Red herring. I am comparing what he says to what Scripture says. I am also comparing what he says to what he does. How is this demeaning. Granted, I call them bozos and bozettes. This is more, as I have said in the past, to remove the mantle of “annointedness” from these clowns that they use to lead sheeple like you around. They are the ones demeaning you. )

Do your insults about those at fbcg include your wife?

(MN: To the degree that she mindlessly listens to them, yes. However, as we worship together at Reformation Alive Baptist Church in Temple Hills Maryland, she is slowly moving away from being vulnerable to the antics of the pimps at FBCG. I suspect our son’t descision to embrace atheism, and his evangelisticlaly vitriolic approach to Christianity is causing her to compare what these clowns say to the realities of life. She is begining to say some of the same things I say and is beginning to recognize the foolishness of the name it and claim it weasels. )

Why do you blame another man for your wife’s spiritual separation from you?

(MN: Let us be clear. I don’t blame him for our “spiritual separation.” I fault him for not doing his job, even if she refuses to leave. I fault him for making it clear that he understands what he should do but refuses to do it until I apologize for making it clear why I was leaving FBCGotK. It has nothing to do with having him force her to leave and join me. Try again. )

There are many like you who THINK they’re Christian; they’re a dime a dozen! So if a brother in Christ sues you, perhaps it’s because it is not a brother in Christ suing another brother in Christ?

(MN:

To be honest, I can understand why men (like yourself) could become jealous of TRUE men of God like Pastor Jenkins; it’s ego and envy. God is a jealous God and He created man after Himself…meaning, it is natural for a man to be jealous. Afterall, what kind of man embraces their family looking up to another man, admiring and praising his work? By the way, remember a man named Saul?

In closing, the word says that we judge a man by his fruit; with all your talk about pastors (who, by the way, will be judged righteously by GOD ONLY not jealous people) what is your fruit? Do you have joy? Do you have peace?

As long as you remain in another man’s business, I question that? You’re being obedient to your god but one day, God may awaken you as He has done for so many. Also, as wise as you make yourself seem, “You can’t recognize canned legal jargon when you read it?” If you’re right and Pastor Jenkins is wrong, don’t concern about what man can do, that’s Christian Life Style 101 (no weapon formed against us shall…) Instead of trying to rally up a group of strangers to be like minded with you; instead, use that energy to work on your “remaining one with your wife” in marriage (before you too have a testimony of divorce–because God can take a man’s wife away as his punishment (that is in the bible too brother)..and you can start dealing with your own marital situation by stopping the sharing of your wife’s business with other men!

Stop letting strange, ungodly, predator, players (in the crowd you’re trying to persuade) know you and wife are separated!! How wise is that? Stop calling others ignorant and examine yourself before you lose your wife. Man up and stop crying about other men’s tangible prosperity. (MN: Where have I cried about other’s tangible property? )

Lose your life (that’s biblical too!) and get a new one with God…if Pastor Jenkins (or any othe pastor) is not anointed, that’s God’s business, not yours and those like minded! God will reward each of us for our good and evil. Others will know if God is for us or against us. Get understanding, God doesn’t need jealous people to help Him reveal and purge Christian perpetrators; God’s been in that business long before you arrived. Amen?

One last word; one way the enemy (the Author of confusion and the Father of lies) consistently exposes himself is that he always uses the same old trick to try to confuse people regarding sin and forgiveness. That’s a warfare that has been raging between God and Satan since Satan was thrown out of heaven. God and Satan uses people who make themselves available. We make ourselves available for Satan’s use by doing things we have no business and we make ourselves available to God by striving to do His will. God said not to compare ourselves to one another because it’s foolishness. Are you foolish?

(MN: No, I’m not foolish. And interestingly enough, I’m not comparing my self to John. I am, though, comparing John to the Bible. But I can see you are perhaps clueless. You sir [I assume you are a sir] have, unfortunately guzzled the kool aid. You have accepted everything Jenkins and the rest of the pimps have been spewing these many years. I have to admit I feel sorry for you. If you ever wake up and read the Bible for you self, I suspect your initial reaction will be great sorrow over the years you have wasted. When you do wake up, please don’t walk away from Christianity. Instead, rejoice in God for showing you the truth and thank Him for the grace He has shown you, both in his patience while you were in such great error, and in His grace for opening your heart to the truth.

As a start down the road, how about you tell me where I have misrepresented John. And this time, stick to the fact, not red herrings. )

JF: “We love Pastor Jenkins & his teachings. He keeps our family united and growing in CHRIST everyday.”

5Qs:
1. Should I believe you?
2. How do I know that what Jenkins preaches is true?
3. Can you prove that you speak the truth?
4. Is your bishop misleading you?
5. Or do you follow your heart like the rest of the heathens do?

Whitney and Bobbie enjoyed dope together.

Does not mean dope is a good thing.

(MN: Yes, he keeps your families together as long as you don’t have to choose between him and the truth. )

(MN: Interesting. I haven’t heard that accusation in quite a while. Quite a while. Given that I give my name and even the city I live in, given that I have discussed stuff about my children, in what respect, exactly, am I a coward. Back when John Jenkins and I both flew out of Freeway Airport, when I saw him I always spoke to him, even if he wasn’t particularly friendly. And given that I have discussed my circumstances, why have you “always wondered who this guy was…”

You, on the other hand, were too timid to even put your name on your posting. Come back when you’ve grown a pair - and once you’ve located the CAPS and punctuation keys on the keyboard. )

Just wondering about something here, and please let me set the record straight before I continue: I’m not a FBCGotK member nor follower of JtM.

Ok, with that stated, I was scanning this thread, I noticed what appears to be your “beef” with FBCGotK… YOUR WIFE!

My question is this: If you can’t get your wife to submit to your authority, how can you expect JtM or anyone else for that matter.

I’ve been following your site for awhile now, and as I can agree with most of your positions posted here, I would love for you to shed some light on this one bro…

Don’t you and your wife communicate???

(MN: Go back and read some of the comments and postings. This is discussed in fair detail. You’re really not bringing up anything new. But to help you out a little, I don’t expect John to “get mu wife to submit to my authority.” That is neither John job nor mine. My issue with JtM is that he refused to take his responsibility seriously and counsel her to do so. What she does with that counseling is up to her, not John. But again, my beef with John is the same one I have with the rest of the pimps - they are more interested in buidling up their power than they are in helping and guiding the sheep. This has been discussed in detail in several comment threads. Look them up and read them. )

Haven’t you taken the time to share your viewpoints with her and express your deeply committed feelings about why she needs to leave and the biblical reasoning for this???

(MN: Truth Hurts, excuse me if I don’t try to answer your questions - again. If you have been visiting the site for a while, you know that this has been discussed before. Do some research on your own. )

Simply blaming another for your inability to be “Priest of your house” is kind of a stretch.

(MN: Again, read the threads. I’m not blaming JtM for anything that has to do with my marriage. )

Truth is Bro. Melvin, you resent the fact that although you saw the light of this misgivings of FBCGotK and especially JtM, you have failed in your attempts to convince your wife of the same. Otherwise, she would be with you and this site wouldn’t exist.

(MN: You’re partially right. If she had left with me, I would like have become too busy at Breath of Life to even think about the damage the pimps are doing to the sheeple. But given that I can’t function in any official teaching role within the structure of the church organization, I have lots of time. And given that I’m not one to sit around and do nothing, the site was the result. But even that took almost four years to come about. )

Don’t get me wrong man… I love your site, keep praying and keeping bringing facts, and prayerfully you wife will come to the conclusion and alignment with you and join you where you are currently worshiping.

Until then, you should check your underlying reasoning for your continued posts against JtM, while maybe true on alot of fronts, your main reason is still based upon YOUR WIFE is still a member there and your pissed off about it.

(MN: The posts “against” JtM are here for the same reasons the posts are here for T. Dexter, Copeland, Cashflow, and others. While I am more familiar with JrM and certainly have a few more insights into FBCGotK, neither he nor the church itself are special targets. )

Peace…

There have been two positions on this issue historically as Christians ask, “where, exactly, was Jesus between Friday night and Sunday morning”?:

The so-called “harrowing of Hell” position states that Jesus spiritually went to Sheol, the “place of the dead” (NOT the lake of fire or the place of torment — our word “Hell” is actually a really imprecise translation of the Greek and Latin terms used by the early church in describing this doctrine) to set the patriarchs free and bring them to heaven with him. It’s got some philosophical support and a handful of verses of Scripture to back it up. The Apostles Creed supports it as well, though it really should say, “Descended to the place of the dead,” NOT “descended into Hell.”

[Parenthetically, folks who don't get this linguistic issue often actually believe Jesus suffered in Hell for us, which is preposterous. Jesus clearly said on the Cross, "It is finished" -- not, "It'll be finished once I go to Hell and endure torment for the sins of my people."]

The other position is that Jesus went spiritually to heaven while his body was in the grave. This is supported by Jesus’ words to the thief on the cross, and his final prayer to the Father (”Into your hands I commit my spirit”) as well as by the OT symbolism of the blood of the sacrificial lamb being taken before God as propitiation for their sins. Thus “It is Finished” means that his sacrifice for sin is complete, after which he immediately (”this day”) brought his blood before the Father as evidence that his people were clean.

I lean toward the second view, because I think it has more biblical support, but the first, if rightly understood (i.e. NOT as Jesus suffering in Hell), is hardly what I’d call heretical.

Unfortunately, Melvin will not allow further discussion about this subject. Email me if you like at: churchatheart@yahoo.com

I’m just getting wind of this discussion. but I have always heard preachers say Jesus was in hell 3 days. Is this what ya’ll are talking about? If so, what do they mean by this or is it just “talk”? I have never understood this and this is a perfect opportunity for me to learn cause I have always questioned whether this was true or not but have been unable to figure it out on my own.

Thanks

You lied again by stating:

“Believe it or not - I Just noticed that your name is Jon. My apologies.”

Here are some of your past post to or about me when using my name that you have now claimed that you are just noticing:

“(MN: This is where we see Jon given an explanation then either ignoring it… )”

“(MN: I have to admit he has done better this time around than the others. But he is nearing his quota. Unless folks say other wise, he gets at least one more response.

Use it well Jon. It will be the one that gets you an extra life. )”

“(MN: I’m going to give Jon, who has been pretty well-behaved this time around, another couple of rounds. Here’s my problem: Jon made a statement (Pagans supported the idea of hell, demonstrating that it is not of God). But when GaryV asked for consistency, Jon then moved on to something else. Each time, Jon has presented a position, GaryV has addressed it, and Jon has modified his position a little…,
By the way boys and girls, here’s a game for you. The one who identifies all the places where Jon makes an unsupported statement or assumption (all of which support his position) wins a free trip to the Melvinite Temple of Wonderful and Fantastic Happenings.”

“And by the way, notice again that Jon quotes scripture. Then he behaves as if the quote can serve as his answer. )”

“Jon, your first comment appeared on 08/05/2006″

Hopefully, the readers on this site are starting to see how deceptive you really can be!

(MN: Jon, I don’t think about you everyday. The fact that I called you Jon then doesn’t mean I remembered TODAY that your name is Jon. If you wish to think I was lying, that’s fine. But I say again, when I looked at the comment, I saw Joe. Believe as you wish. But gosh, do you really think if I was going to lie to you that I would tell one so easily shown to be a lie? )

Here again, you have deceived your readers. My last post related directly to the three points that Aubrey last presented to me. Why not let your readers use their own minds? You seem to run this site like many of the cults that you preach against! And you claim to have the love of Christ but insist on disrescting me by calling me Joe and distorting the truth about my comments!

(MN: I didn’t say they didn’t. I said you were using this as a platform for presenting your silly doctrine. And I will not provide you the platform from which to do it. And I do have the love of Christ. Which is why I choose to exercise restraint in what I publish from folks who preach stuff like your stuff. If the folks want to hear that, they can go to your site.

Believe it or not - I Just noticed that your name is Jon. My apologies. )

)

1. Those scriptures you cited have nothing at all to do with 1 Peter 3:18,19.
2. It’s clear from Acts 2:27 that Jesus descended into hades.
3. A spirit is not a human being! A spirit does not have flesh or bones human beings do! Luke 24:39

In Christ,
Aubrey Thomas

Melvin you stated:

“Another place says he preached to those in the underworld”

I believe you are referring to I Peter 3:18-19
This is another one of those commonly misunderstood scriptures. The spirits that are/were in prison are all humans who are under the bondage of sin. This is not talking about Jesus going down to some “underworld” or “hell”. Compare some other scriptures with this one and I think you may understand what I’m saying.

1 Peter 3:18-19

18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and PREACHED TO THE SPIRITS IN PRISON, 20 who formerly were disobedient,…

Luke 4:18

18 “ The Spirit of the LORD is upon Me,
Because He has anointed Me
To preach the gospel to the poor;
He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted,
TO PROCLAIM LIBERTY TO THE CAPTIVES
And recovery of sight to the blind,
T0 SET AT LIBERTY THOSE WHO ARE OPPRESSED;

Isaiah 42:6-7

I will keep You and give You as a covenant to the people,
As a light to the Gentiles, 7 To open blind eyes,
TO BRING OUT PRISONERS FROM THE PRISON,
THOSE WHO SIT IN DARKNESS FROM THE PRISON HOUSE.

Isaiah 61:1

1 “The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon Me,
Because the LORD has anointed Me
To preach good tidings to the poor;
He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted,
TO PROCLAIM LIBERTY TO THE CAPTIVES,
AND THE OPENING OF THE PRISON TO THOSE WHO ARE BOUND;

We all (Body of Christ) were bound and held captive by sins dominion. We all were set free by the preaching of the gospel (Christ birth, death, and resurrection). We are those spirits that were held captive.

(MN: Come on everybody! We’re all saved. Let’s all get together and sing “Kumbaya”. Thanks Joe. I needed that clarification. )

But now that you are on the record, there are scriptures that strongly suggest that he suffered in hell. In Acts 2:27, He endured the pains of death. The Gk for pains is ODIN; it means sorror, To travail in birth. Also, Jesus likened his death burial and resurrection to Jonah being in the belly of the whale for 3 days and nights, Matthew 12:40 and Jonah 2:1-10. That whole chapter of Jonah is an elegy of Jonah’s agonizing experience; it was no picnic! Interestingly, in verse 2, the Holy Spirit inspired the writer to use the Hebrew equivalent of hades–sheol.

MN: “Did He become the first born again man?”

1. Romans 8:29 says He is the firstborn among many bretheren. He is the first, but there are many many more.
2. When was he born? In Acts 13:33, Jesus is begotten of the Father on the day of His resurrection. (Gk for begotten is GENNAO–to be born)
3. Colossians 1:18 says that Jesus is the firstborn from the dead.
4. 2 Corinthians 5:21 states that Jesus was made sin for us.
5. As sin, He was forsaken by the Father Matthew 27:46. Separation from God is death, isn’t it?

These scriptures pretty much speak for themselves. (MN: Of course they do. And where in those scriptures do they speak of suffering and sin? ) There are other scriptures and Old Testament types I could share, particularly Leviticus 16th Ch, but I won’t go into them. I just wanted to bring to light the scriptures upon which those you call “heretics” base their belief and also to ask you again, why do you think Jesus went into hell?
(MN: According to the Bible, He “…led captive a host of captives.” Another place says he preached to those in the underworld. But again, you are still trying to demonstrate that Jesus descended into the underworld. No one is saying he didn’t.)

It is very ease to sit safely ensconced behind positional ambiquity on certain scriptures and hurl “heretic”at those who don’t accept your position on scriptures. It’s another thing entirely to lay all of one’s cards on the table and allow objective readers to decide for themselves who is scriptural and who is not.

In closing, when you wrote “Are we clear now?” I thought of Jack Nicholson’s character in “A Few Good Men.” He said the same thing to Cruise when being cross examined. Cruise’s reply was the same as mine–”Crystal.”

(MN: That’s nice. But apparently we aren’t. You’re still trying to demonstrate that Jesus descended into hades. )

Btw, I inadvertantly deleted “descended into hell” from the Apostles Creed. I was trying to highlight it in bold letters but it didn’t work.

In Christ,
Aubrey Thomas

“descended into hell” - This part of the creed was added in later years. Please do some research on this for yourself.

And as for this scripture:
Eph 4:9 - 10
9 (Now this, “He ascended”—what does it mean but that He also first[b] descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.)

“descended into the lower parts of the earth” is stating the fact that Jesus came down to the earth which is the lower parts being referred to. Not that Jesus went to some place called hell. He humbled himself (brought down from the glory that He shares with the Father) while on Earth during His first advent. The bible does not seem to teach that Jesus went to hell nor suffered in hell for any time period.

Melvin,

You stated that you asked Jenkins this:

“If Jesus was in hell for three days, why did he say to the thief on the cross that that day he would be with Him in paradise?”

Luke 23:43
And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you today, you will be with Me in Paradise.”

(MN: I was wondering if you were going to use the stock Jehovah’s Wittness and Kenyon answer or not. I suspected either you or Aubrey would be the one to try it. And let me guess - Thomas wasn’t really calling Jesus his God, right? )

Jesus was not stating that the man would be with Him in Paradise on that day but merely promising the man (right then on that day) that he would (in the future at the resurrection) be with Him in Paradise. The confusion comes when you consider the placement of the comma (I say to you today,.. or I say to you, today…) in some Bible translations. We must remember that the punctuation marks are added by men to God’s Word. Therefore, we must be careful in punctuation usage, in many popular Bible translations, in order to rightly divide the scriptures.

You also stated:

“they could have, and probably should have, stated it as “hades” rather than “hell.”

You seem to have finally started doing a little research on how the word “hell” has been mistranslated in some popular bible translations. Hades is simply the place or state of ALL the dead (righteous and unrighteous) not a place of buring torment (hell). The bible makes no reference to Jesus going down to a place called hell.

(MN: More importantly, Aubrey, do you believe these verses state that our sins required Jesus to suffer in hell contrary to the clear teachings that our sin was taken care of on the cross, by the shedding of His blood, by piercing of His body? If you don’t, why are you wasting my time with the question? If you do, why are you wasting my time - period?

Are we clear now? )

Last, it is clear that the early church fathers believed that Jesus went to hell as is evidenced by the Apostles Creed:

“I believe in God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth; and in Jesus Christ his only Son our Lord; who was conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, dead, and buried; ; the third day He rose again from the dead; He ascended into heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of God the Father Almighty…” (emphasis mine)

It appears to me that Jesus did indeed go into hell. If you agree, the question that must be asked and “crux” is why?

Your thoughts.

(MN: Three things:

Remember - creeds don’t prove anything. They provide a way of encapsulating good doctrine. And no place in the creed is there the idea of Jesus suffering - just as there is no indication of such in the verses that discuss Him descending into “hell”. )

On another note, I found the following article by Cal Thomas to be excellent and it speaks to the current political discussion. http://www.worldmag.com/webextra/14651

In Christ,
Aubrey Thomas

These are the teachings of that doctrine.

AS for heresy, you didn’t mention Jenkins bringing Oneness preachers into his pulpit to deceive the flock. We don’t really have to break that down do we?? If you balk at Jesus being tormented in hell by demons being heresy, certainly you don’t do so regarding Oneness, which has been considered heretical throughout church history??

May I ask you what are those scriptures, if you know them? And what is your exegesis of the same scriptures?

In Christ,
Aubrey Thomas

(MN: I spent three months “discussing” the doctrine with John. They use Eph 4:8 - 10 to demonstrate that Jesus suffered in hell.

Aubrey, do you think this verse justifies the “Jesus suffered in hell for our sins” teaching? Can you identify any scripture that makes it clear that Jesus’ death on the cross paid for our sins? If not, go to http://www.blueletterbible.org and do a search on reconciled, “His body”, “on the cross” and let me know what you find. Now there may be some obscure verse that COULD, if you ignore everything else, COULD be taken to say that Jesus suffered spiritually for our sins since sin is spiritual. But I’m not sure you want to use the interpretive technique to support the heresy. )