If you are going to say you are Reformed, at least be more accurate with your tag. (I saw in your comment framework that you use the moniker Dead Man Walking.)

I don’t disagree with the subject. I don’t disagree with the content. I don’t even disagree with your feelings toward these men. What I personally don’t like is the tone. It sounds hurt. It sounds bitter. I’ve been there. I understand.

(MN: Apparently you don’t understand. I don’t present opinion. The men and women discussed here say the things I show them to say. It’s not my opinion. The Bible says what it says. It’s not my opinion. The men and women preach heresies. It’s not my opinion. The pimps and pimpettes take advantage of the unsaved and untaught. That’s not my opinion.

On the other hand, you think my tone sounds hurt. That is an opinion. I sound bitter. That is an opinion. Again, apparently you don’t understand. )

While no one can draw a man to repentance but GOD, I still think that it is wise and responsible to deal with followers of false teachers in love and in patience. Some of the ways you deliver your views are harsh. And name calling is also immature in my opinion (and in many people’s opinion.)

(MN: I’m not trying to draw these men and women to God. I am warning men and women away from them. And apparently that effort has been somewhat successful. )

For many people, such as myself, pentecostal, “faith”, WOF (ETC) teachings were a part of my life. They were part of ME. It was a cancer. Now if I go to a surgeon to have a tumor removed, it would be irresponsible to cut me open, reach in, and yank that tumor out. It would cause unnecessary pain and potentially fatal damage.

If the surgeon truly cared about my well being, he would carefully cut the tumor away before he removed it. Sure, the surgeon clearly sees the tumor. It’s in plain view. It’s obvious. How could he NOT see it? But even though he sees it, it’s not a simple wham bam procedure.

Likewise, when trying to teach a person out of WOF, it would be responsible to do so in love. Honestly, it’s because of that approach that a brother was able to get past my immediate defense of “calvinists are just arrogant, argumentative, combative, pharisees!” Once I got past that and we examined scripture together, it left me with little choice but to accept the TRUTH! Praise GOD for His grace!

(MN: Sorry, but there are literally millions of Synergistic Christians who have been approached in what you are defining as love. And they still think Calvinists are Satan’s tool. While I would never go out of my way to be unpleasant to some one I am speaking to about Monergism (read the posts), it is, as you said earlier, God who removes the scales from the Arminian’s eyes. It’s not the loving presentation or the flawless logic that does it. Though certainly I should be loving [as the circumstance determines the love] and should always be logical - yet not discount the feelings of the person I am talking to. )

I think the reason the man said that it sounds like a bunch of bickering is because it does. To them (and honestly, to me) it sounds like clanging symbol stuff. I don’t see a love for the decieved. I feel scorn. I feel an “I’m right, you’re wrong” tone. Just because the man wasn’t able to articulate his feeling doesn’t mean that you should automatically disregard it. I would hope that if he were able to articulate his feelings on the matter, you’d be receptive rather than dismissive based on the assumption that “he’s just defending his idol.” If your true desire is to draw people away from their idols, in my opinion (and experience drawing others away from false teachers), the best approach is love and patience. Carefully cut the tumor away. But of course, as the word says, (paraphrased) warn them once, warn them twice, and then leave them to GOD. Don’t push the matter. But don’t hold a grudge either.

(MN: Actually, he said it sounds like a bunch of bickering because none of the stuff I write about is of any particular importance to him. Trinity vs Oneness? That ain’t important! We should just love each other. Sins paid on the cross vs sins paid for in hell? Not that important! We should just love one another. We can’t judge each other! Everybody has their own beliefs! But we have to get past those differences and love each other.

What you might want to do is read the posting through what I will call “doctrinal eyes” and not simply emotional eyes. You will then see that feelings have very little to do with it. Patient? I am patient. I have been doing this for five years [I start year six in a couple of days]. I don’t chase after people [I can't]. This is a web site and I don’t send out e-mail. People come to me. And if God chooses to use this site for the people He is drawing, that works too. )

Of course this is just my personal opinion and insight. (MN: This entire comment has been your personal opinion and, I must say, not much insight. ) Of course you have the full right to express yourself as you will. This is a blog after all. A place where you don’t have to be tactful. You can just blurt out all the frustration that you feel.

Ultimately, that’s what I assume you do on here. I could be wrong. But it seems that way. You have a lot on your chest and you just blurt it out no matter how insulting or alienating. Then again, I’m sure you can say worse and you do show some restraint (”less than worthless” is quite different from “brood of vipers” by the way…think it through).

(MN: Yes, less than worthless isn’t at all harmful if you don’t follow them. A brood of vipers can kill you. I was actually being nice to the less than worthless deacons. Although I must say their inaction is paving the way for the eternal death of thousands. )

I would just suggest you exercise a little more restraint. Let the Word and the facts speak for themselves. Your argument has no power to convince or save. These are my suggestions based on my feelings and opinions and experiences. But again, this is YOUR blog and your opinion. Do as you will. I pray that this challenges you, though.

(MN: After reading your supposedly restrained comment, I must say I am somewhat puzzled. How do you come to the conclusion that my arguments have the power to save? Although, perhaps I can understand that you would come to these conclusions since by your own words you are only working with your feelings, your opinions, and your experience.

And no, it didn’t challenge me. I heard the same words from different commentors over and over again. And like the rest, you present nothing but your feelings. Try Scripture next time. )

Grace and Peace.

(MN: Only the ones that allow women to pastor. )

(MN: He’s good. Between a flaky computer and a restriction on internet access, he has to hustle to get in. )

(MN: After a while I can see there is no need to continue working with a particular person. But half the fun is warning people away from the pimp pits. )

(MN: Then don’t. )

(MN: I accidentally deleted this one and had to type it in again. )

(MN: And that’s okay since the character of Christ appears to be completely absent in her life as well. )

(MN: I Like your smile Pastor! )

it goes without saying that you will continue to speak on this. By all means do. Give the people you have talked to time. You have given them a lot to think about. It can certainly be frustrating when people don’t respond at that moment of truth. But I believe that in due time what you have said will make more sense to them and they will respond in the affirmative to the Truth (whether you witness it or not).

Peace and blessings

(MN: I’ve seen people almost explode in anger - no matter how gently you attempt to use the Word. But sometimes it’s good when they respond this way. When I was meeting with John K. Jenkins and my pastor at the time, to ask him to counsel my wife to leave FBCGotK, and we tried to approach him with scripture, John made it very clear that if we insisted on using the Bible, he would end the discussion. I saw the poor man for exactly who he was at that point.

You have to wonder what guys like John K. Jenkins are going to face when they meet Jesus Christ. Think of all the lives they have ruined, even shattered. )

Our minister’s church is in Lovejoy.

Peter.

Thanks for taking a stand. I am the pastor of a small church in Georgia. It amazes me how people who are unhappy with a ministry will remain and even defend the status quo. It is time to try to turn the ship around and get the emphasis back on Jesus and the Gospel of Jesus Christ, not riches.

(MN: My pleasure. I’m from Atlanta. Where are you in Georgia?

By the way folks, as people write in [like this fellow], you might want to consider working up a prayer list to include them. Being a small church and resisting the frustration to throw in the towel for a nice suit can be almost overwhelming at times. )

He was specifically referring to being cautious in our biblical exigesis, but it applies perfectly to Fred and Rufus.

I was for years involved with a church startup that became increasingly enamored with the newest wranglings of the church growth movenent. spent nearly a year on the elder board attempting to turn the ship, and was ultimately moved (by man and God) to leave. i would place 85% of the people who i have met that still attend there, in one of those 2 categories.

It is sad and at times confusing.

Everyone loves to have their opinion considered as longs as you don’t actually try and understand it.

After reading this posting, I thought I should write and tell you that I have actually met John Jenkins in Las Vegas with a mutual friend. Actually, it was Jenkins, his wife, my friend and his wife, and my wife was with me.

Interestingly, Jenkins is a little guy with no real personality. I can understand his arrogance and insecurity a little more after talking with him. Unfortunately, it is because the Black church is largely Biblically illiterate, that we will allow men such as Jenkins to run amok in the church.

Unless God raise up some strong men who know their Bible, men like Jenkins will continue to keep the people in the dark. Thanks for sharing your experiences. I’ve had a few encounters and conversations with people like the men you have described in this last posting.

Blessings to All!

BT

(MN:Hey BT, good to hear from you again. Thanks for the observation. It’s interesting how people who actually talk to him (man to man not some anointed so and so) tend not to be particularly taken with him? )